Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 11

= April 11 =

Japanese Translation Question
Does anyone have any idea what this means: 坪効 ? I am in the middle of a translation, and it keeps coming up, but I can't find it on any of my other resources. At first I thought it was a misprint, but it's coming up regularly, so it can't be. I believe it must be an abbreviation for something, but I can't for the life of me work out what for. All I know is that the context is financial. Any help, appreciated as always. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * it means something like "operation efficiency", i.e. profit/area. It is used in the context of shopping malls etc. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See also Pyeong, Chinese units of measurement and Japanese units of measurement. --Kjoonlee 01:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Term for functional beverages?
Is there a term for the current spate of beverages that are purported to confer health benefits? Anchoress 01:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nutraceuticals, but this applies to all foods, not just drinks. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm familiar with that term and it's not what I'm looking for, but thanks. Anchoress 02:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No point in telling this to a google queen, but, possibly for the reader's sake, this market search report from 2004 states that functional beverages form "a category that still does not have an industry-agreed definition," while this report from 2006 seems to use the umbrella term functional drinks. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed; don't milk, fruit juice, vegetable juice (or for that matter even coffee, tea, wine, beer, or water) provide health benefits ? Soda pop is about the only total "junk drink" I can think of. StuRat 17:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think "drink" is a junk drink? If you are familiar with the Chappelle bit. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 19:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I watched it, but he seemed to think SunnyD qualifies as "juice", even though it contains less than 2% orange juice. StuRat 15:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Sluzzelin. Anchoress 19:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Three dot symbol
What is the three dot symbol used in the Argenteum Astrum article? Dismas |(talk) 06:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ∴ redirects to Causality, but doesn't appear in the article, so the redirect is unhelpful. I only know ∴ as a symbol standing for "therefore" in mathematical proofs. —Angr 06:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, says that it's 'there4'. Lots of useful results in that search. Anchoress 06:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It reminds me of the traditional symbol for pawnbrokers, flipped horizontally. JackofOz 06:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is itself the symbol for 'because' - which is kind of the opposite of 'therefore'. --Richardrj talkemail 07:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In Unicode, many characters have rather long official names ("F", for example, is "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F"), but the official names of the "therefore sign" and its reversal (the "since sign" or "because sign") are simply "THEREFORE" and "BECAUSE". --Anonymous, April 11, 23:43 (UTC).

As to the original question, the sign seems to be being used as a fancy alternative to a period in abbreviating the title phrase. I don't know of any name for it in that use. --Anon, April 11, 23:59 (UTC).
 * The symbol is frequenly used in (mostly older) mathematical proofs, where it is usually read as "therefore"; it appears introducing a conclusion that follows from previouly established facts, theorums, or lemmas. Waht its meaning is in the articlu referenced, i am unsure. DES (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

In the context of that particular article, the three dots are being used as a Golden Dawn / Aleister Crowley tradition thing, completely unrelated to the mathematical usage (it's being a mini-Tetraktys would be more relevant). AnonMoos 01:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Phrase in Lithuanian
The following heading appears in an archival print showing a display panel of WWII-era photos from a vintage museum exhibition in Vilnius: The English translation provided is ambiguous; what would be correct? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 09:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * VOKIEČIŲ ŽVÉRIŠKUMAI ŠIAULIUOSE

Translation to Ancient Greek
I am looking for a translation into Ancient Greek of the phrase "stream (as in river) of the little Mars" (or alternatively "stream of the little Ares", although then the pun becomes probably too convoluted for anyone to notice it). It should be phrased in a single word and should sound like an Ancient Greek name (I know it is not actually a Greek name and it probably could not have been, but as long as it sounds like one and people with a knowledge of Ancient Greek realize what it means, that's all I want to achieve). Thanks in advance, Ferkelparade &pi; 13:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To take a crack at this, I'd need (A) to understand "the pun" (I don't get it), (B) some idea what or who "little Ares/Mars" is supposed to be, and in what sense it's the stream "of" him. Wareh 13:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's an attempt to translate a contemporary German surname. The German name is "Merkelbach", "bach" meaning "stream" and "Merkel" according to an etymological lexicon I consulted apparently being a diminutive form of "Mars". So there's not much point in trying to understand the pun, the main point being that I want to have a character in a story who is supposed to play the present-day Merkelbach's part in antiquity -- Ferkelparade &pi; 14:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My best guess is Areiorrheithron, from Arē- (stem of Ares) + -io- (diminutive suffix) + rheithron ("stream"), with the r doubled because that's what happens when words beginning with rh- occur as the second part of a compound. —Angr 16:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Since Ἄρειος exists as a standard adjectival form of Ares, I'm not sure that would be felt as having any diminutive force (cp. Ἀρε(ι)οπαγίτης). This page, for what it's worth, suggests that Merkel is the diminutive of Markward "guardian of the border" (for which some inscriptions have ὁροφύλαξ), which seems less curious, though admittedly in any case that might be hard to lump in with -bach.  If you do settle on a -rreithron compound, you'd want really to use -rreithrios (?) (adj. suffix; in any case avoid giving the person a neuter name).  But since I've never seen a name ending that way, my mind turns to Kallirrhoē (masc. adj. καλλίρροος); we could make Horiorrhoos or something like that.  Assuming you still like Plan A, maybe try Are(i)orrhoos (Ἀρε(ι)όρροος)? (I don't think it's worth bothering to make the neologism any more precious & unlikely by trying to squeeze some diminutive nuance into its first part.)  Wareh 19:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, both of you. I just found another possible etymology: the village of Merkelbach, of whose existence I was unaware until a couple of minutes ago, says here that it derives its name from the Eurasian Jay which is apparently called "Märkel" in the local dialect. Is it possible to construct a name Greek name out of the bird's name? Is it even known what the ancient Greeks called the Jay? If not, I might still make the character a Roman instead of a Greek slave (it's a very minor character, so that would not be too much of a change) and call him Garrulus Rivus (sounds slightly Asterix-y, which is not what I'm going for, but at least looks like a Roman name) -- Ferkelparade &pi; 07:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you call him "Garrulus Rivus" people will think you're alluding to a babbling brook, though. —Angr 07:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is absolutely known! The Eurasian Jay in Classical Attic Greek is kitta (κίττα).  Some classical precedent for calling people jays: Aristophanes (Birds 1297) mentions Kitta as an epithet for the politician Syrakosios; he "probably owed his nickname...to his raucous oratorical style" (Dunbar).  I'd think it would do perfectly.  Wareh 17:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I do think it's most elegant just to call him Kitta (i.e. "the Merkel of Merkelbach"); I've shown above with my own efforts what grotesqueries can result from trying to do too much without any real ancient warrant.  Wareh 00:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien rights
(Not sure which desk to ask on) I'd like to find out who (if anyone) currently has the rights to making games (computer) based on the J.R.R.Tolkien intellectual property (ie lord of the rings et al). I'm not interested in the rights to make games based on the films based on the books (I know that EA games currently have these rights). I've no idea where to look - thanks for any help.87.102.33.176 13:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no requirement that such information be in the public domain, but you might be lucky. In general you would start by asking the copyright holder, but you can start by reading about them here:Tolkien Estate which leads on to Tolkien Enterprises. If I were running such an enterprise, I guess I would not give anyone exclusive rights, but instead look at proposals for exploitation. Notinasnaid 14:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks - it seem that Tolkien Enterprises owns the rights to all merchandising, including things based on the books, leaving the tolkien estate only with the actual text still as intellectual property - at least that's the impression I've got here - can anyone confirm that's right.87.102.33.176 15:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien rights (Question 2)
I someone could answer this I would appreciate it - am I right in thinking that Tolkien Enterprises only has control over film rights and merchandising (including games) for the hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and does not have any merchandising rights etc for the Silmarillion or other Tolkien works. (note: The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II: The Rise of the Witch-king seems to be based on parts of the Silmarillion which has confused me.). Thanks again in advance for any help in answering given.87.102.33.176 16:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe the Entertainment Desk would be the proper place for these questions. StuRat 17:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

moved there87.102.75.246 17:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

A Wrinkle in Time
What is the cats name off of "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" part of the "A Wrinkle in Time" series. it is quite important so please post it on the "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" page thank you 24.252.109.107 15:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You can search that book here, but the word "cat" appears only twice, and it doesn't seem to be named. --TotoBaggins 00:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the proper name for the bubble that appears in cartoons with text in it?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.186.204.42 (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC).


 * The article on speech balloon has a few possible terms. ---Sluzzelin talk  18:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

"normal English" and "Irish English" corresponding with Irish protestants and catholics
Hello,

I hope this question belongs here and not in humanities. It is quite clear that "Irish people" have their own English accent (even though I am well aware that this is certainly not the completely different Irish (Celtic?) language). My question is, in Northern Ireland, do catholics and protestants all speak with the same Irish accent, or is their a difference,a real symptom of their different ancestry? I mean : do Sinn Fein people and people like Paisley speak the same kind of English? Thanks!Evilbu 23:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In general, accents in Northern Ireland are far harder than those in the south. There are also variations in degrees of hardness and softness, determined by class and other social and occupational factors.  However, there is no discernable difference between Catholic and Protestant communities as such, and Ian Paisley does not sound that different to Gerry Adams.  Clio the Muse 00:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I once quizzed some Northern Irelanders on this while in Northern Ireland, and they agreed with Clio that accents do not vary with religion. Clio is also right that accents do vary with class.  In addition, there are important regional differences in accent or dialect within Northern Ireland.  In general, the further north and east, the more features that are shared with Scottish English, and the further south and west, the closer to the English spoken in the rest of Ireland.  Marco polo 01:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have also heard and experienced that the Northern Irish accent (which extends into the Republic; people from County Donegal and County Monaghan also have Northern accents) is common to both Catholics and Protestants, but there are a few shibboleths that distinguish the two groups. One well-known one is the name of the letter "H", which Catholics call "haitch" and Protestants "aitch". The distinction perseveres because to this day Catholic and Protestant children almost never go to the same schools, and the two names are taught in school along with the rest of the alphabet. —Angr 05:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As per Marco Polo, there is a definite and noticeable difference by region in Northern Ireland. My relatives (on my mother's side) have lived in the village of Waterfoot and the surrounding area for generations; this is in the far north-east corner, and is about as close to Scotland as you can get without falling into the sea, and the accent is very soft and sounds similar in many respects to southern/south-western Scottish accents.  My uncle married a Belfast resident, and even now, several decades later, the difference between their respective accents is clear.  Overall, then, I would say that the regional factor is the most significant factor in accent variation.  Hassocks5489 08:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Mid Ulster English includes all of Northern Ireland and County Donegal, but not all of County Monaghan, which is variable. The north-east of the region has more Scots influence (perhaps Clio's "harder") than the rest; this area also has the highest percentage of Protestants; but both within and outside this area, Catholics don't have very different accents from their Protestant neighbours.  Throughout Ireland, there is an Anglo-Irish accent of the descendants of the former ascendancy class, upper-class members of the Church of Ireland.  In its purest form this is very similar to South-of-England RP.  I venture to suggest that some middle-class Church of Ireland members in those districts of Northern Ireland where they form a large majority have adapted some of this accent; I'm thinking in particular of prosperous North Down.  Presbyterians and Roman Catholics are more likely to be working class and also less likely to "drop" their accent if they become middle class, or indeed if they move to, say, London.  To my ears at least, Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams sound more like each other than either does to, say, Sylvia Hermon.  In the Republic of Ireland, the "Anglo-Irish" accent is used by very few Catholics, while many Protestants have the same Hiberno-English accent as most Catholics. jnestorius(talk) 18:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * A Belfastian who had a very strong and distinctive accent unlike any Irish accent I'd heard before (or since) once told me that there is a great variety in Belfast accents, which are distinct from the surrounding more uniform areas, and by which he could identify with reasonable accuracy what area within Belfast a speaker originated from – and thereby whether they were Catholic or Protestant. --Lambiam Talk  20:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I once heard a paper, and chatted with the Ulster author, which showed that there were some significant differences of degree of use of some variables, but people did not notice them, esp. as they were differences of degree of use, rather than shibboleths as such. Drmaik 12:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)