Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 2

= April 2 =

Japanese label problem
I have a japanese product that I would like to order more. The contents on the box are written in Japanese only. Do you have any suggestion to how I could find the company?71.212.185.172 00:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's very vague. Can you at least give us a clear picture of the text, or what it is? --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you don't mind a little tedium, you could take a look at our katakana and hiragana charts. There's a strong possibility that some of the text on the box is katakana (generally angular), and a smaller chance that some of it is hiragana. You could then transliterate the text into Roman characters and find a translation at Jeffrey's J-E dictionary, or you could paste the Japanese text straight into Babelfish. Alternatively, you could photograph or scan the box and post the image here. If you do that, you'd have an answer pretty quickly, and we could tell you what the kanji are as well. Is the name of the company printed in Roman letters? Often it is. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

How
How come the Norwegians didn't try what the Icelanders did: use the ancient Old Norse written langauge after independence? Norway had their own written tradition before Danish conquest, why didn't try to use their last written form for their current langauge? A reponse on my talk page would be great appreciated. Thank you!100110100 02:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

German's r as a consonant
In my book, the letter r is a consonant /r/ (written as r or rr) in rot, frei and dürre. It's a vowel /a/ (as r or er) in der, wer and Kinder.

What about words like der Arm, die Art and der Herr? What are the general rules of r as a consonant/vowel in relation to its place in a word?--61.92.239.192 02:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * R is vocalized before a consonant and at the end of a word in most dialects of German. Certainly in northern accents, the r of Arm, Art, and Herr is usually vocalized. According to the standard "Duden" pronunciation, though, this is true only after long vowels, not after short vowels. Thus the "standard" pronunciation would be and  with a consonantal r but  with a vocalic r. I've heard German newsreaders follow this rule, but I don't think I've heard any "normal" Germans follow it. —Angr 05:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Since when is Arm considered shorter than Art? Wikipeditor 15:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If it helps, I pronounce verärgerte without any consonantic Rs, but Verärgerung with a consonantic last R. Wikipeditor 15:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken, that's because the last R in Verärgerung begins a syllable. The (only sometimes according to Duden) vocalized R's close the syllable to which the preceding vowel belongs.  Of course Ver-, as a prefix, is its own syllable, despite the following vowel.  Wareh 03:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In standard German (TV pronunciation), r is a consonant at the beginning of a syllable (rot) and after a short vowel (Arm, Dürre, Herr). It is a semi-vowel after a long vowel (der, wer, Tür). The suffix -er is pronounced as a single full vowel (Kinder, Bauer). Chl 02:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Language Learning Idea
I'm very new to Italian. I'm studying on my own, and I plan to start studying an hour or more a night for two months before I head to Italy for three months to work in a restaurant there this summer. I am using a Rosetta Stone language program that strikes me as quite good, especially on the pronunciation and word-to-image-association front, but incomplete in that it teaches all these distinct phrases that leave me feeling like I still can't really speak or understand too well. So I figured the best way to improve my understanding of the language and the way it goes together, especially somewhat colloquially, is to read a book (if I watched a movie right now, I doubt I'd understand more than 5 percent of it). Harry Potter came to mind. The idea is that apart from very sparse wizard-speech it will be very simply written. It was straight forward in English; I can only expect it to be even more so in translation. Also, as a kid's book, I expect that it'd be very colloquial. Most importantly, being a nerd just emerged from my prime wizardry-reading years (between 11 and about 15 -- I'm 18 now -- I was a huge HP fan who read most of the books several times) I would know the book well enough that there would be few moments when I couldn't get the gist of what was being said. And so I expect it would be a fairly fluid (though obviously labored - especially at first) read that would build up a solid vocabulary of colloquial words and terms and even a couple magical ones, as well as a general understanding of how people speak in Italy. Does this strike anybody as as good an idea as it seems to me? Yes? No? I'm just looking for ratification, really. I want to find a secondary way of studying besides a grammar book, and this seems to me like a solid idea. And maybe as I near departure, I can start with the movies (maybe even HP in Italian) to combine all the auditory phrases I know from Rosetta into better audio comprehension. Any additional suggestions? Thanks, Sashafklein 03:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * When trying to acquire familiarity with a spoken language, I haven't found literature (which Harry Potter is, even in translation and despite its having juvenile protagonists and a young target readership) as helpful as reading journalistic language. Look on line for mainstream Italian newspapers and popular magazines, possibly of the city where you're headed, and read articles on subjects with which you're familiar (including the food columns!) though not news that's bound to be full of names rather than colloquial language. Otherwise, contact the cultural attache's office at your nearest Italian embassy or consulate, that's likely to sponsor language learning programs geared for conversational fluency rather than reading. Explain your purpose and that you'd appreciate their advice even if you can't attend a course. You also may wish to hire a tutor. Another source is the culture and tourism section of the website of the city or region where you'll be staying. An additional suggestion: read around in an English-Italian dictionary, where you'll be pleased to find lots of phrases far more helpful than isolated words. See the one offered online by the Wordreference website; if you're willing to purchase, look for a CD-ROM from Oxford University Press (whose bilingual dicos in other languages I know to be superlative) or Encarta. For a print bilingual dico, I recommend those produced by Collins, and of course phrasebooks by various publishers are helpful for casual study. ''Buona fortuna! -- Deborahjay 05:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

To me it looks like a good idea. In fact I also did use the Harry Potter books to improve my reading skills of German and French... :) For me, that had some advantages: 1) I'd already read it in English, so it helps you figure out lots of foreign vocab by context, without the need to look it up. 2) The way they're written is "easy" (easier than other literature or newspapers), with words and strctures that you use in everyday speech, which is useful if you prefer that to other more formal speech. 3) If you like the story you have an incentive to read, and not just "to learn the language". (I also used other books: for young adults, The Little Prince, Isabel Allende's, John Grisham, etc.) As to the listening, you could also get the audio versions of the HP books, they're easily available. --RiseRover|talk 09:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * When I first came to Germany I learned a lot of German by watching American TV shows dubbed into German. Because shows air here about a year later than they do in America, they were episodes I had already seen in English, so I knew basically what they were talking about. Also, dubbed speech tends to be a bit slower and more carefuly enunciated than "real" German conversation, and use less obscure slang. Now that I've been here 10 years, the dubbed shows get on my nerves with their articificiality, and I hardly watch them at all any more, but in my first year or so here, they were very helpful. —Angr 09:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that Harry Potter in Italian seems like a good idea, as does reading newspaper articles on subjects that you're familiar with. Here are my experiences when learning Spanish, listed in order of increasing difficulty:
 * Translated non-fiction on subjects you're familiar with. Two I found useful in Spanish: Beginnings by Isaac Asimov, The Demon-haunted world, by Carl Sagan.
 * Non-fiction originally written in the language you're learning, on subjects you're familiar with.
 * Newspaper articles.
 * Translated literature, fiction. The difficulty will of course vary with the translation, but in my experience, literature that's translated into Spanish is a lot easier to understand than literature originally written in Spanish.
 * Literature (fiction) originally written in the language you're learning.
 * I'd avoid the so called 'easy readers'. Their only merit is that they're short, I did not find them particularly easy to understand. I'd also recommend finding podcasts on subjects that interest you. Good luck! --NorwegianBluetalk 13:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * May I ask in which Italian city/region you will be working? I'm asking because the inhabitants of certain regions, particularly in Southern Italy and Sicily, may speak dialect versions that can be surprisingly difficult to understand for someone who learned classical Italian (lingua toscana in bocca romana) at first. The locals will understand you, of course, and you'll eventually get the hang of it, but I knew an American who came to Bari, and though she had studied Italian and spoke it fluently, she was initially unprepared for and somewhat frustrated with the Pugliese variety. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Near Milan. I think I'm safe. Sashafklein 02:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, most likely. :-) You still might wish to read up on lombard language, for history's sake. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sluzzelin (talk • contribs) 03:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

on train/trains/rail/rails?
I'm showing my live travelling odometer by train as signature at instant messengers, someone suggest me use "on train/trains" but others suggest "on rail/rails". My signature is like "2007: xxxx km on (train/trains/rail/rails)". Which word should I use in this situation? Yao Ziyuan 11:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "On rails" here is using an idiom (one that I think works well), while "on trains" is literally true. I think the second sounds too blunt, while the first is a little playful, but either would be OK. Neither "on train" or "on rail" is correct. Tesseran 13:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "xxxx km by train" also works. I find hundreds of Google hits for "km by train" against one unique hit for "km on rails", the latter with actually a different meaning. --Lambiam Talk  20:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And to complete the set, "by rail" also works. So you want "on rails", "on trains", "by rail", or "by train". I prefer the two "by" versions. --Anonymous, April 2, 2007, 21:25 (UTC).

Pronounciation "Samuel Fuller"
How do I pronounce correctly the family name of Mr Fuller? "f[u]ller" or "f[a]ller"? Thanks... PhHertzog 18:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * F[u]ller. Marco polo 18:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what sounds the symbols [u] and [a] are intended to represent.  I've always assumed the surname was, the same as the comparative adjective fuller meaning "more full"; with the vowel sound  of full, pull, put, should, would, could, good, wood, etc.  Is this incorrect? jnestorius(talk) 20:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The origin of the surname is the profession of fuller, though this harkens back to the adjective, so your comment can follow on from there.... - Nunh-huh 21:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with both comments made since mine. The question came from a German user, and I inferred that he was referring to roughly the sounds those vowels would have in German.  In fact, "Fuller" is pronounced in English much as the name would be pronounced if it were in German.  The only difference is that Mr. Fuller was American and most Americans would add an [ɹ] after the final vowel.  On the other hand, Mr. Fuller spent his youth in Worcester, Massachusetts, and New York City, both places where non-rhotic accents prevailed.  So he himself probably did not end his name with that consonant.  Marco polo 21:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the agent-noun fuller is probably directly from Latin fullo, which has the same meaning. Even though pronounced like the adjective, the word appears not to be etymologically related to the adjective. --Lambiam Talk  22:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I wondered whether, as a Russian-Jewish immigrant adopting an English-sounding name, Samuel's father might have used an idiosyncratic pronunciation for Fuller. I guess not.  jnestorius(talk) 22:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I would say it should be pronounced in whatever way Mr. Fuller prefers. One personal experience: I have a friend whose family name is Kołodziejczyk, but often said it was pronounced "Smith". (Yes, he did know the proper (Polish) pronunciation, but got tired of people mispronouncing it.) It was quite funny when we met and began working together, since we both have the same given name, and my family name really is Smith, so he coundn't use his "alias" any more. In short, any way Mr. Fuller prefers. Esseh 02:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * One would have to contact people who knew Mr. Fuller to be sure; however, when immigrants convert their names to typical English names like Fuller, they generally want the name pronounced in the standard way. It is this standard pronunciation that we have described.  Marco polo 12:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Tootsie Footsie Whaaaaa?
On IMDB, reading reviews for Bridge to Terabithia, I saw the following comment:


 * I got a chance to watch this movie through a DVD and what I had in mind about this movie is that its going to be yet another tootsie footsie children's flick, but I was totally wrong !!

The reviewer self-identifies as being in India. So, my question is, is 'toosie footsie' a known term? What does it mean? Is it local to the Indian Subcontinent? Is it British? Anchoress 22:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I never heard the term before, but some research using Google told me that there exist "Mary Kay Tootsie Footsie parties", which apparently are parties in which the (female) participants are treated to a pedicure (with MK products, which are then sold to the participants). The term is used in a more general sense to mean "pampering", which perhaps is the origin of the MK use. An old use is in tootsie footsie ice cream, words uttered by Chico in a Marx Brothers skit. My best guess for the sense of its use in the imdb comment is: "feel-good". In any case, there does not seem to be a tie to India. --Lambiam Talk  08:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've heard "tootsie footsie" in a way that might match the subject matter. It's people, usually of opposite sex, rubbing their feet together, often under the table, secretly, in a romantic manner. This is the type of thing preteens might do while at the dinner table. The use of the term "footsie" is obvious, and "tootsie" (or just "toots"), I believe, is an archaic term for a girlfriend. So, the term means "to play footsie with one's tootsie". I'm from the US, incidentally, but don't know if the term is only used here. StuRat 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks to both of you for your answers. Anchoress 02:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You're quite welcome. StuRat 05:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

translation
hi! Anybody of you out there who could help me translate this notice from French into Filipino? Not so good at this language. - chay —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.192.56.58 (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Le porte télécommande peut être fixé au mur ou posé sur un meuble.
 * Il peut contenir six télécommandes


 * If no one replies to this, I recommend finding users who have categorized themselves as both speakers of Filipino and French, and asking one of them kindly on their talk page. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can do French to English, if that helps. So, if you can do the English → Filipino part, you should be OK. Was that any help? Esseh 02:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The remote (control)-holder can be attached to a wall or left loose (literally " placed on a piece of furniture").
 * It can hold six remotes (or remote controls).

Justin Time 4 Just Ella
On the Wikipedian link Just Ella and in the description of Lucille, there is a phrase called "suck up". What does it mean? In the Merriam-Webster's 11th edition Collegiate dictionary, it says: "to draw liquid into the mouth". Coffsneeze has corrected the article by writing "complaining or enduring" to match the context; however, there is doubt if this is true to the story.Coffsneeze 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Suck up" is defined here (under "phrasal verbs"). I have no idea what "complaining or enduring" is supposed to mean in this context, though. --Anonymous, April 3, 00:11 (UTC).

So, it is like flattery?Coffsneeze 00:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To 'suck up' to someone is to behave in an obsequious and fawning manner towards them. The addition of the words 'or complain or endure' robs the passage on Lucille of all sense.  Clio the Muse 00:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok; don't like it? Well, "Just suck it up, Marine!" Colloquial or informal. To absorb or endure a difficult, punishing, distasteful or unpleasant situation. Kinda-sorta like "tough shit", "so what", "big deal", or "deal with it"? Sound like what's being said? Would depend on the context, though (I guess... IMHO... et cetera). Thoughts? Esseh 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Suck it up" is different from "suck up to (someone)". --Anon, April 3, 06:22 (UTC).

People in Australia who wish to retain the monarchy rather than become a republic are often said to be "sucking up to the Queen". This sounds rather vulgar to me, but then, we are a nation of sophisticated vulgarians. JackofOz 06:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Good points Anon and Jack. However, how about someone who perversely enjoys or seeks out difficult, dangerous, nasty and/or disagreeable jobs most (sane?) people would avoid. Rarely used, but I have heard of soldiers that just suck up combat conditions, politicians who suck up the stress of electioneering, stock brokers who suck up the stress of trading pits... and so on. The notable difference is the absence of the word "to". Sucking up to someone I don't think is nation-specific either, JackofOz. Certainly the expression is very common in North America, and not just toward Monarchs/Heads-of-State: e.g. academics wrt deans, bidness (business) types wrt company CEOs, many people wrt local, provincial/state, and/or federal potiticians, and so on. Vulgar? Definitely. Common? Also certainly, I think. (We used to have a little ditty in the military that went: There's a brown ring 'round his nose, and every day it grows and grows.... The inference is rather clear, and that was quite some time ago in NA! Oh, and Aussies are great IMHO, and based on my one trip there and working with a few here. Not really vulgar so much as irreverent. Quite refreshing, I found... Esseh 06:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, mate. In the sense you're using "suck up", we have a similar expression - "lap up".  Editing Wikipedia is hard going for some people, but he really lapped it up.  JackofOz 10:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Esseh might be sucking up to us, JackofOz... Adambrowne666 12:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Er... no, but I do admit to sucking up quantities of great Aussie beer when I was down there (sadly, long ago)... And don't be irreverent! Your Worship is welcome here. (I love a bad pun...) Esseh 18:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Me too, and ditto on the thanks from Jack - Adambrowne666 10:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)