Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 24

= April 24 =

Opposite of aquatic
What's a word that is the opposite of aquatic? I want to talk about all the plants that don't live under water. Terrestrial comes to mind, but apparently plants that live in trees and ones that live on rocks have other terms. Any ideas?

Aaadddaaammm 00:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would venture "boreal" and "lithic", but I'm not sure if those terms are used in botany. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, there's always "non-aquatic" (or "nonaquatic" if you prefer). If there are several kinds of non-aquatic plants, that may well be the best you can do. On the other hand, if the word you want does exist, the Science desk might be a better place to find it. --Anonymous, April 24, 2007, 01:42 (UTC).


 * First thing that came to mind for me was terrestrial, which has "non-aquatic" as a definition .-Andrew c 01:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Non-hydrophytic" gets quite a few ghits, but it seems to have a specialized meaning to do with wetlands. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all your suggestions, I guess I'll just go with terrestrial. It sounds flasher than non-aquatic. Aaadddaaammm 02:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Is 10.10 properly pronounced "ten point one zero"?
Is 10.10 properly pronounced "ten point one zero" as opposed to "ten point ten"? --Seans Potato Business 10:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about a decimal number, then you wouldn't normally include the last zero. It's just "ten point one". --Richardrj talkemail 10:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless there needs to be a certain number of significant figures. and if so, yes, "ten point one zero" not "ten point ten". Storeye 10:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a convention in science and engineering that 10.10 means "between 10.095 and 10.105", whereas 10.1 means "between 10.05 and 10.15", but in normal usage 10.10 can be pronounced in any unambiguous way. "Ten-point-one" and "ten-point-one-zero" are acceptable, but "ten-point-ten" would convey the same information adequately, even if it would be regarded as unusual. --Tony Sidaway 10:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

In the context of software versioning, it may be "ten point ten". Sometimes people want to pronounce that differently to make sure you are understanding that the first and second numbers are major and minor revision numbers, respectively, and not to imply some precise measurement. I can't claim to know anything about how common or proper this is. Root4(one) 11:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * To make the point explicit, in software versioning "10.10" is "ten point ten" because it comes between 10.9 and 10.11. The 10 really is a ten, unlike when 10.10 is a decimal number.
 * "10.10" has at least two other meanings. It can be a monetary amount in dollars and cents, pounds and pence, etc.; in North America this is pronounced "ten ten" but in other countries forms like "ten pounds ten" may be used. And in Britain it can also be a time; this could be pronounced "ten ten" or expanded in ways like "ten past ten". But "ten point one zero" is correct and the best choice when it is a decimal number. --Anon, April 24, 23:09 (UTC).


 * In French, however, it would be dix virgule dix, I believe, because in France it is correct to read numbers after the point (comma) as if they were ordinals. No idea how you read out a transcendental number... Notinasnaid 12:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Dictionaries, phonebooks, "alphabetical order"?
How are those done in Chinese? Is it by the number of strokes? Thanks.--Kirby♥time 11:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * From Chinese character: "Dozens of indexing schemes have been created for arranging Chinese characters in Chinese dictionaries. The great majority of these schemes have appeared in only a single dictionary; only one such system has achieved truly widespread use. This is the system of radicals."  Follow the link to Chinese dictionaries for what appears to be Wikipedia's fullest treatment.  (The multi-lingual overview of this topic is Collation.)  So, is radical-and-stroke sorting used for telephone directories in China?  Wareh 13:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm a Chinese speaker. In dictionaries that are based solely on Mandarin, characters are arranged in pinyin order. The headings of each syllable also contain the bopomofo. In the index, characters are also arranged in stroke order. Dictionaries that don't follow pinyin will most likely be arranged in stroke order only, like in a dictionary with both pinyin and Cantonese pinyin.--61.92.239.192 14:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:%E6%B0%B8-order.gif]]
 * Could you clarify what you mean by "arranged in stroke order"? For example, how would the word above be sorted based on its stroke order?  Thanks!  --TotoBaggins 16:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a Chinese word ? It looks amazingly like the letters "ijk" to me. StuRat 17:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is a Chinese word. It means "water".  I'm not sure, but based on the animation, I think that this character is considered to have five strokes.  Watch the timing.  Marco polo 16:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't mean 'water', it means 'eternal'. 'Water' has no dot on the top = 水. There are five strokes in the character, and its radical is the dot. Skumbag - 酢薫バッグ 18:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wait, what? Why isn't "water" the radical? P.S. It's also used in Japanese as the first part of eien (forever), or 永遠. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, in Japanese dictionaries, the key radical of a given kanji is chosen in a particular order which is, if I remember correctly, (1) being the whole kanji, (2) being the left part, (3) being the top part, (4) being the right part, (5) being the bottom part, and then in some order being one of the corners, or surrounding the other radicals, and a couple of other cases. I may have left and up switched around, and likewise right and bottom, but in the example above the dot takes up the top part and so is the key radical. Confusing Manifestation 06:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Titles and forms of address in Botswana
I'm doing some work on the pages related to The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series of novels set in roughly present-day Botswana, and need to understand the following: Perhaps this is some indication of the ethnic or tribal origin of the characters? Example: A Mr Buthelezi (so called in the author's third-person reference), son of a Zulu father and Motswana mother, is addressed as "Rra" by the Motswana protagonist, Mma Ramotswe. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 13:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The meaning and pronunciation of Mma and Rra as titles attached to women's and men's surnames (respectively) as well as being a stand-alone, direct form of address. (Note: according to this Times Online interview with the author (February 28, 2006), "Mma" is pronounced "murmar" and means "madam")
 * The use of Mma or Rra for some characters, vs. Mrs or Mr for others.
 * I assume that the transcription "murmar" is intended for a non-rhotic audience and that the word is pronounced more or less like . —Angr 04:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The stories have been turned into dramas by the BBC and are often repeated on BBC7 a digital radio site available over the internet.You can hear how they are pronounced there,by ladies with the loveliest accents.hotclaws**== 11:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

List of names of groups of animals
I am trying to find a list of names of groups of animals but am having no luck. For example, a group of whales is known as a pod, a group of birds is called a flock. I have seen extensive lists in the past but can not figure out how to search for this particular topic. Can you help?


 * The phrase you want to search for is "collective noun". There are some lists of collective nouns here at Wikipedia and there are other lists here and there on the Internets - however, there's always a risk that somebody has been having fun and made things up themselves, so before using any of the fun new ones you should probably double-check. --Bonadea 18:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just found the Oxford University Press list of collective nouns for animals - that should be safe enough to use :-) It's here: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/collective/ --Bonadea 18:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. I had never heard of the term "collective noun".  Just learned my new thing for the day.  The www.askoxford.com reference looks interesting for future use.  Someone here at work just suggested two new "collective nouns":  a giggle of gay men and an anger of lesbians.  But, being the PC person I am I would never repeat that in polite company. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.99.65.8 (talk) 18:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
 * "PC" aside, your workmate's purportedly humorous quips based on shopworn stereotypes are an affront to sensitive people regardless of their personal orientation, and might be better challenged than ignored. Just my opinion (though hopefully not mine alone). ''-- Deborahjay 20:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The collective term for bankers in the City of London is humorously said to be a "wunch". - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 14:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Proper use of multiple titles in business salutations
I am trying to find information on the proper use of titles in business salutations. For example, I am sending a letter to a married couple, Michael and Sally Jones. The husband is a Doctor. Would I address the letter to Dr. Michael and Sally Jones? I was considering using Dr. and Mrs. Michael Jones, but since I work for a women's health clinic I would like to avoid using that particular option. I also have several other people with formal titles such as Professor, Reverend, etc. Also, what do I do if both husband and wife are Doctors? Would I say Dr.'s Michael and Sally Jones, Dr. Michael and Dr. Sally Jones? I have no idea, please help! If there are any guides similar to the MLA handbook for this kind of thing I would love for someone to help me find it. Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.97.180.18 (talk) 18:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The traditional solution is indeed "Dr. and Mrs. Michael Jones". If that doesn't appeal to you, I'd say put the names on separate lines, with the woman's name first:

Ms. Sally Jones Dr. Michael Jones
 * I'd do that also in the case where they are both doctors:

Dr. Sally Jones Dr. Michael Jones


 * —Angr 19:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but as far as putting them together, such as Dr. Michael and Sally Jones if one is a doctor or Dr. Michael and Dr. Sally Jones...what's correct...I'm stuck! I would like to have it all on one line. Even if it looks bad, I was just wondering what the grammatically correct way of combining the two salutations and names would be. Thanks!
 * Grammar has nothing to do with it; it's all just a matter of custom. As far as I know, the custom is more or less as I outlined above. But of course you're free to establish your own customs if you don't like the existing ones! —Angr 20:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The best guide, bar none, if only because it is amusing as well as informative, is: Martin, Judith. Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior. Crown Publishers; New York, NY, 1982. I did try to find her answer to your question, and she does have one, in an on-line form, but you may have to resort to the book. Bielle 05:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Title spelling corrected to facilitate any online searches. --Anon, April 25, 07:18 (UTC).


 * Read what Wilber has to say. Anchoress 07:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One correction I would make to the link above is that you should never say "Dear Firstname Lastname" or "Dear Title Firstname Lastname", because you would never address someone like that face to face. If you're writing to someone you're on a first-name basis with, write "Dear Firstname". If not, write "Dear Title Lastname". So in the salutation of a letter addressed to Ms. Sally Jones and Dr. Michael Jones, you should write simply "Dear Dr. and Mrs. Jones" (unless you know them well enough to write "Dear Sally and Michael"). —Angr 07:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That example was given in the event that the writer doesn't know the sex of the addressee, and it's not obvious from the name. Anchoress 09:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)