Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 26

= April 26 =

Twelfth Night
Hello. In Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, could Sebastian, Viola's twin brother, dress up as Count Orsino's men because he visited there after Antonio, Sebastian's friend, brought him to shore? If yes, Sebastian is dressed up the same as Viola. Sebastian claimed that he was called Roderigo. Roderigo in Twelfth Night has nothing to do with the other Roderigo in Othello. How was Sebastian called Roderigo? Thanks very much for your response. --Mayfare 03:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The two answers above at apply here too. —Angr 05:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

These questions araised from curiousity when I was reading a Twelfth Night book. They are not homework questions. --Mayfare 20:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Transliterating and translating Russian
Hi, On a poster in my R.E. class, there are these Russian words: СЛАВА ВОИНУ ПОБЕИТЕЛЮ

which I think transliterates as SLAVA VOINU POBEITELYU. The SLAVA might be the same sort of thing as the English word "Slavic", but I don't know. When I put any of these words into a Russian to English dictionary, it doesn't translate. This could be because I'm not sure of the second character in СЛАВА. On the poster, it looked sort of like this : /-\ Please can anyone help? By the way, it was on what a WW2 poster so it's probably a "join the army" type thing. Thanks, My Username is... 12:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Слава is "glory"; войну is an inflected form of война "war". The last word I don't know. Looks like a verb. —Angr 13:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In the last word, pobeitel- is presumably a typo for pobeditel- (victor). The endings are bothering me; is a missing preposition governing voinu?  (My Russian is rusty.)  Wareh 13:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There was a dot between ВОИНУ and ПОБЕИТЕЛЮ if that helps. I think I copied the letters down correctly though. My Username is... 13:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The endings bother me too. It's possible that whoever wrote it got their syntax wrong - we tend to assume that speakers/writers of foreign languages always use correct syntax and grammar, but there's every reason to believe they misuse their languages as much as English-speakers do.  It may not even have been written by a native Russian speaker, who knows.  My gut feel is that it's trying to say "Glory to the victors of the war" or "Glory to the war and the victor", but without the full context I can't say for sure.  JackofOz 03:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this the poster you saw? --Cam 03:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So, it wasn't a dot but a hyphen. ВОИНA-ПОБЕДИТЕЛЬ seems to be a compound word meaning "war-winner".  But still doesn't explain why ВОИНA (fem.) is in accusative (ВОИНУ), but ПОБЕДИТЕЛЬ (masc.) is in instrumental (ПОБЕИТЕЛЮ) - (or is it dative?)  --  JackofOz 06:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As a native Russian speaker I believe this is meant to glorify the warriors who won the war. And as strange as it sounds grammatically, it makes sense to me. I believe it best translates as "Glory to the warrior, the winner." --Julie


 * Yes, that's the poster. Thanks for all your help. I'd always wondered what it said! My Username is... 07:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

On closer inspection, I see the word isn't ВОЙНA (= war), but ВОИН (= warrior). Note the different vowels - Й vs. И. JackofOz 09:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed that too, but thought that the breve had been left off the Й for obscure typographic reasons. —Angr 10:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As a native speaker, I concur with Julie above, although I'd use "victor" instead of "winner" (i.e., the full translation is "glory to the warrior, the victor"). Romanized, it indeed would be "slava voinu-pobeditelyu", but that's not the only romanization system that can be used (see romanization of Russian for other systems).  As a side note to Angr, no valid reasons exist to omit the breve from the Russian "й" (unlike with "ё").  Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all of your help. I don't speak any Russian, but now I think I should now at least familiarise myself with the Cyrillic alphabet. Thanks once again for your help.

My Username is... 17:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Could be wrong but sounds a bit like "to the winner the spoils" to me. VelhinhoEstoniano

Korean, maybe?
Someone asked me what "agashe ipudah" meant. It's the transliteration of something that sounds like another language, and I think somebody said it was Korean. Any idea what it could mean?-- the ninth bright shiner   talk 14:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In Korean, "아가씨 이쁘다" means "Young unmarried woman, (you are) pretty." It can be transliterated as "agassi ippeuda", pronounced something like . It will probably sound like to most foreign ears. --Kjoonlee 17:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't usually call young unmarried women "agassi," though, because of certain connotations that the word can carry. --Kjoonlee 17:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And you don't use "-da" in front of strangers either.. ;) --Kjoonlee 17:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What connotations? Those of a tennis player with a shaved head? —Angr 18:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Merging Clichés
A Spoonerism is the switching around of initial sounds: "Mardon me, Padam, may I sew you to another sheet?" Is there a formal name for merging parts of two different clichés: "Now that's a horse of a different kettle of fish!" Bielle 16:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Mixed metaphor (see the bullet item under "types").   --LarryMac 16:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The mixed metaphor might apply, it generally mixes two entire metaphorical idioms though, while Bielle's example, if I understand correctly, forms a hybrid out of two parts of different idioms or proverbs. Same with catachresis? As a puzzle or joke list, I've seen the phrase twisted proverbs, but I don't know the "formal" or linguistic term, if there is one. Oh well, practice makes waste, and no news is in the eye of the beholder. ---Sluzzelin talk  16:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd also like to know if there is a formal term for this. While we sit and wait for the other shoe to drop the question everything in life, here's a couple of weakest links; to bide your time is on my side of the law. (See e.g., here and here for a few hundred or so examples). dr.ef.tymac 17:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Dundrearyism is close. jnestorius(talk) 20:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I had never heard of Dundrearyism. I think that the speech defects of one of the characters in the play on the night that Lincoln was assassinated was not a hot topic in Canadian schools. And from there, I went to Bushism, of which I had heard, thought I did not know that there were so many embarrassing examples. And then, two more new topics: Eggcorn and Mondegreen. I thank you all, but especially, jnestorius, for a wonderful half-hour's read. Bielle 20:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I think I'll sit back and read the articles at all those links while I enjoy a nice cough of cuppy. StuRat 05:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Try stirring with one of those chocolate coated spoonerisms, "the taste that can't be beat" a dead horse to water. dr.ef.tymac 14:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. StuRat 02:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated Grammatical Objects
Sometimes you just can't get rid of a nagging problem. Can anyone help me with the grammatical term for using two unrelated objects in a sentence that have the same subject, for example

"He arrived in London by chance and the 16.35 train from Birmingham". Richard Avery 16:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're looking for the word syllepsis (or possibly zeugma). ---Sluzzelin talk  16:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, for your speed and kindness. Richard Avery 17:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Also common examples are (from Blackadder) 'I'm going to stab him', 'Where?', 'In the great hall and in the bladder.' There are plenty of similar jokes on this theme, but I just love to quote Blackadder at all oppurtunities.137.138.46.155 07:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)