Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 29

= April 29 =

In which ___ does ___.
August J. Pollak asked the internet this one, and since the MeFi helpdesk bore him no fruit, perhaps we can do better:


 * Okay, here's a puzzler that's been bugging me for a while for you all to ponder over the weekend: I've noticed over the last few years with the rise of blogs that bloggers like to title their posts with the old-timey phrasing of "In which ____ does _____." So, here's my question: anyone know if that came from one specific origin, and if so, where?


 * I posted this to Ask MetaFilter the other day and didn't get very far. The earliest someone suggested it being practically applied was Don Quixote in 1605, but I feel like it must have started earlier than that. Does anyone know? Keep in mind I'm hoping not to get idle speculation here; if you don't know either, it's perfectly okay. I'm looking for an actual answer (if one exists) rather than just an extensive list of books/etc. that used this style.

I've got nothing. Anyone? grendel|khan 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * All I have is more idle speculation. The only place I've seen it is in Don Quixote, but it would be worth checking out the stuff he was parodying like Tirant lo Blanc and Orlando furioso. Recury 14:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The poem Orlando furioso has no such synopses preceding the cantos, but the romance Tirant lo Blanc does indeed have them for each chapter: • Capitol I. – Comença la primera part del llibre de Tirant, la qual tracta de certs virtuosos actes que féu lo comte Guillem de Varoic en los seus benaventurats darrers dies. • Capitol II. – Com lo comte Guillem de Varoic proposà d'anar al Sant Sepuclre e manifestà a la Comtessa e als servidors la sua partida. and so on. This medieval work from 1490 predates Don Quixote by 115 years. The even earlier Le Morte Darthur (or at least the Caxton edition of 1485) does not have such synopses in the main text per se, but sports them for each "chapytre" in "the table or rubrysshe of the contente of chapytres shortly". --Lambiam Talk  21:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * John Lennon says "Phase One, in which Doris gets her oats" in the intro to Two of Us. Of course that is not the source of the phrase, but maybe that's where people know it from these days. Adam Bishop 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Dates in French


How would a French person in the 17th century have written this date in a formal letter: July 28, 1655?

Thanks in advance.

Adambrowne666 01:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Same as now, I would think (but don't know): 28 juillet 1655. I don't think it's all that clear that most letters were dated; I looked at two (one from François II à Philippe II d'Espagne, and another from the future Charles IX (written 11 novembre 1559)), and neither was dated. A letter from Henri IV to Marie de Médicis written in 1606 was dated only "9 octobre". Ah, found one from Philippe III to Louis XIII that's dated 27 août 1612. So it seems they used the style now still used. Ah, here's an example from King Louis XV, 25 juillet 1753: - Nunh-huh 02:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful answer, thank you - an actual letter and everything - amazing... Adambrowne666 02:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're more than welcome. (Notice, though, that the dates seem to occur within the body of the letter, at the end, as in the letter shown, and that the notation at the top is probably that of an archivist!) _ Nunh-huh 21:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hope you dont mind me moving the image to the right and the top of the section, it didnt look nice while it was positioned in the middle of the sentence. Shinhan 12:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference for phonetics of some words..
hey...i want to know how to pronounce some words and so i need the phonetics for that. 'away','claim','directivity','patriotic','accqinstance'.can u help of pronouncing these words..? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.56.231.116 (talk) 04:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

away, claim, patriotic, acquaintance, directivity. --TotoBaggins 05:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Dictionary.com will also give the pronunciation in IPA. --Lambiam Talk  06:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Translating into Cuneiform
Hi, Can you translate the Lords Prayer into ancient text Cuneiform?

Thank you, Marianne —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.197.134.154 (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Cuneiform is a writing system, not a language. There are several different languages that were written in cuneiform, including Sumerian, Akkadian, and Hittite. —Angr 14:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you mean a transliteration or transcription, then someone would first have to develop a method for transliterating or transcribing English texts into cuneiform. A perusal of the list of cuneiform signs may show why this is a daunting task, unlikely to be undertaken just for the fun of it. A complicating factor is that cuneiform writing was used for several unrelated languages, and that the system varied considerably per language, and also over the period of about 30 centuries it was in use. But even if we fix this to, say, the Sumerian version at the time of Ur III, a major problem is that the script was then a syllabary rather than an alphabet, and the Sumerian syllables do not correspond to English syllables. In adopting the system for writing the Akkadian, a complicated mixed system was used that perhaps worked to a certain extent for that language, but that would not do very well for English. The problems are a bit similar to rendering English words using the Japanese writing system; Our father which art in heaven (without later additions introduced solely for transcribing non-Japanese words) may come out as something that, transliterated back, is perhaps Auabazaauichiaatoinheben. (You would also have to decide which of the many versions of The Lord's Prayer to use.) --Lambiam Talk  14:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems there was a way to write Aramaic in cuneiform. Someone could conceivably take the prayer in one of the modern forms of Aramaic and transliterate it into cuneiform. --Cam 15:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Aramaic was not really all that commonly written in Cuneiform. Translating the Lord's prayer into the Sumerian or Akkadian or Hittite languages in a reasonably correct manner would demand the skills of one of a relatively small number of academic specialists (who are unlikely to be hanging around the Wikipedia language reference desk), but once the language translation was done, then there would be a known correct way of writing it in cuneiform script (in fact, several known correct ways).  Transcribing English sounds into cuneiform script would demand less specialized knowledge, since there are available tables of the most commonly-used CV and VC signs for simple "semi-syllabic" writing; but it would still require some basic linguistic skills, and awkwardly grappling with a writing-system which was never intended to write English sounds.
 * If you're just looking for a quick-and-dirty transcription of English sounds, I would recommend using Old Persian cuneiform instead of "real" (Sumero-Akkadian) cuneiform, since Persian cuneiform has many fewer signs, writes a range of sounds which aligns better with the English sound inventory, and is much easier to use in a quasi-alphabetic manner. The signs are generally simpler than Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform signs, too. AnonMoos 05:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification!! To get a translation of the Lords Prayer from any Language to Cuneiform would be awesome. Will pay for it.


 * Your request still makes no sense, because cuneiform is not a language, so you can't translate into it. Do you mean you'd be satisfied by someone writing down the English Lord's Prayer with cuneiform signs instead of English letters?  r speer  / ɹəəds ɹ  01:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

YES... -- unsigned by 209.197.134.241 20:17, 1 May 2007

yes Rspeer!Isn't writing down the English Lord's Prayer with Cuneiform signs instead of English letters, translating it? Please forgive my ignorance. Marianne


 * "Transcribing" or "Transliterating" means changing words from one writing system to another (without changing the language), while "Translating" means changing the language (regardless of whether the writing-system is changed). AnonMoos 19:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

For example Marianne, let's say you took every letter of the alphabet and replaced it with a picture of a different animal. Then, let's say you took a few letters out - N, B, and O, for example. Then, let's say you wrote something in English with this new animal-based script. It would look different when written, and have to be pronounced slightly differently at points because of the missing letters - "pear" instead of "bear", "dag" instead of "dog" - but it would still be English. Thus, it would be "transliterated", or "transcribed." Now, let's take a language like Spanish, which is written with nearly the same alphabet. In English, you would say "This is a white dog." In Spanish, you would say "Eso es un perro blanco." Even though these are written with the same writing system, they are obviously not the same language. So, changing a sentence into a sentence in another language is called "translation". Hope that helps! :) Ozarker 05:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU, I now understand...Marianne

Antonio's orderal
If Antonio defended who he thought was Sebastian but was actually Cesario and Cesario denied Antonio, why would Antonio leave a note at the Elephant? I am guessing that Sebastian received Antonio's note, written after Antonio's arrest and before Sebastian arrived at the Elephant. Sebastian was sightseeing at the meanwhile. --Mayfare 17:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the language reference desk. Please take literature questions to the humanities desk. And when you do, the people there will be grateful if you provide some context to your question. —Angr 18:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I forgot to add that this happens in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night. I hope that still doesn't mean I must put this question in the Humanities desk. --Mayfare 02:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid so. What does this question have to do with language?  JackofOz 05:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

French to english.
Can someone please tell me how to write "I am, you are , he is , she is , We are , they are , you (more than one)are , they(feminan)are , they are(mascalin) ,

and the same thing for "to have" and I would please also like to know how to write the diffrent endings for "ir,er,and re" verbs because theres a diffrent ending for eash kind of verb depending on if you you say he or she.Please help me ASAP(as soon as possible).Thank u 4 ur patience. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.102.217.142 (talk) 18:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

"I am", etc., is 'je suis', 'tu es', 'il est', 'elle est', 'nous sommes', 'vous êtes', 'ils sont', 'elles sont'. "I have", etc., is 'j'ai', 'tu as', 'il a', 'elle a', 'nous avons', 'vous avez', 'ils ont', 'elles ont'.

'-er' verbs: parle, parles, parle, parlons, parlez, parlent '-ir' verbs: vends, vends, vend, vendons, vendez, vendent (I think) '-re' verbs: raconte, racontes, raconte, racontons, racontez, racontent (I think).

Sorry, I haven't done French for years. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 19:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I was going to suggest googling "French Verbs". I also haven't done French homework for years, and thus am equally lacking confidence in the examples given. Bielle 19:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Vendre is a -re verb, not an -ir verb, and raconter is an -er verb. I think our article French conjugation will be helpful. --Lambiam Talk  19:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoops! Still, I think I got the endings right, but to be on the safe side, check out French conjugation as Lambiam suggests.Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 20:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact the usual way of answering this type of straightforward question is to direct the questioner to the relevant article or website. That will save a lot of space.--K.C. Tang 01:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)