Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 5

= April 5 =

quick documentation of wiki
i'm doing a project and i used wiki.. i am wondering how to write a proper bibliography for a website. what is the proper way to write one for wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.165.212.181 (talk) 00:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Check out Citing Wikipedia. --TotoBaggins 02:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

pre-SSR: "Belorussia" vs. "Byelorussia" in US English
Query posted on the Belarus discussion (Talk) page: I need to know the preferred spelling in US English for this region's name when it was part of Imperial Russia. Is there a particular etymology for either of these variants that indicates which might be the more authoritative? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 05:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The choice has nothing to do with etymology, but purely reflects different ways of transliterating the Cyrillic into the Latin alphabet. The traditional name in Russian is Белоруссия (note the letter о, unlike the Belarusian name Беларус), in which the single letter "е" is pronounced like /jɛ/, or English "ye". There have always been different methods for the romanization of Russian, some of which would render Russian "е" like Latin "e", others like Latin "ye". For geographic names the currently common BGN/PCGN system is a standard (adopted both by the United States Board on Geographic Names and by the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use), and the choice (which is context-dependent) made here, following a consonant, it just "e". The system is not entirely rational; since "э" is also romanized as "e", there is no easy way back (the system is not "round trip"), and in the similar cases of ю and я the transliterations are always "yu" and "ya". In any case, its use is official policy on Wikipedia. So, for example, we also write "Belorechensk", and likewise it should be "Belorussia". (Not everyone is always happy with this policy.) See the end of this page for more on the etymology. --Lambiam Talk  08:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Postscriptum. Actually, following the BGN/PCGN rules, it should be "Belorussiya". Now that is a fairly uncommon spelling. In Google hits:
 * Byelorussia: about 827,000
 * Belorussia: about 1,420,000
 * Byelorussiya: about 377
 * Belorussiya: about 13,100
 * --Lambiam Talk 08:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In the days of Imperial Russia, the region in question was probably most commonly called White Russia in English anyway. I think Belorussia or Byelorussia was the usual English name in the days of the USSR, and Belarus has predominated since independence in 1990/91. —Angr 08:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * (Remark drafted prior to edit conflict):My question's specificially about the pre-SSR name. The translated term "White Russia" may indeed have been an historical usage in US English (though perhaps not exclusively of "Byelorussia"), as W.R. appears in the Random House unabridged dictionary with the definition: Byelorussia. However, some of the argument of that page indicates that the term may have a bogus quality I'd do well to avoid, as my text is for a museum exhibit. So I'm following Lambiam's lead to represent the name in transliteration from the local language of the period. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * List of country names in various languages has: "Belorussia or Byelorussia (former English), Belorussiya - Белоруссия (Russian)". The choice seems to be (apart from the English name used then) between the English name commonly used now for the region then (where there are two contenders of about equal frequency), and the transliteration of the Russian name. --Lambiam Talk  08:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to me the question is not about how Белоруссия should or should not be transliterated today, but what English speakers actually called the region in 1886. I think it's more a history question than a language question.  I agree with Angr, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't simply generally called "White Russia" back then.  JackofOz 09:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See above remark regarding rejection of the translated name for my purposes. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * For a museum exhibition, you might just say something like "in what is today Belarus". Using either "Belarus" or "B(y)elorussia" in a reference to an 1886 event is an anachronism. Also, as I comment at Talk:Belarus, there wasn't an administrative unit corresponding to Belarus/Byelorussia/White Russia at the time. —Angr 09:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's our practice for explanatory texts (such as in the online archives) where space is not at a premium. However, to remain within the style and space limitations of the exhibit display, using an historical form of the region's name (coupled with a date in the 19th Century) suits the purpose just fine. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 10:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the least anachronistic historical form of the region's name in English is "White Russia". —Angr 11:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Persian alphabet
If anyone has a second for my little question, what I was trying to find out was whether there is a difference in pronunciation between the following groups of letters in Persian/Farsi: Does each group have the same pronunciation (i.e. /s/, /z/, /t/, respectively)? Thanks in advance! --Dpr 17:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * se, sin, sad
 * ze, za, zad
 * te, ta


 * According to our articles Persian alphabet and Persian phonology, the letters on each line are indeed homophonic. For /z/ you even have a quadruplet: you can add the letter zal to it. --Lambiam Talk  18:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese character number 1


Can you tell me the meaning of this Chinese character before I make it into a charm? Thanks. Nebraska bob 18:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It means number.
 * In Chinese: 数
 * In Japanese: 数
 * In Korean: 數
 * The Korean version is the most conservative in this case. --Kjoonlee 20:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

ACtually kjoonlee, that is the traditional Chinese version borrowed by Korea. It is still in use in many Chinese speaking areas such as Taiwan and Hongkong.

onery
What is the etiology of the word "onery?" I have to assume that since it isn't in wikipedia that it existed before the beginning and human understanding of the word has been as inherent to our selves as remembering to breathe while we sleep. Please help. ^^^^


 * Assuming you have the same word on'ry, ornery, etc., in mind, your question was answered recently. See: Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2007_March_28.  Wareh 20:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Is etiology the right word here? It kinda works - in its meaning as cause - but did the questioner mean etymology? Adambrowne666 04:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The etiology of a word could be the circumstances that led to its coming into use; more obviously applicable to loanwords. &mdash;Tamfang 00:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Pertaining to Linguists/Speech Pathologists
I hope this doesn't go under miscellaneous. I'm an instructor who is teaching an intro spanish/english phonetics course in the coming weeks, and I'd love to be able to direct my students to websites where they can download a font that would allow them to type in IPA, thereby making their homeworks easier. I've always used the symbol mode of microsoft word, and it proves tedious and frustrating. Does anyone know of a place where these fonts can be downloaded for free, or even a good program to use? I'm new to this field of linguistics. Also, I'm sure some students will have macs, is there one for them as well? Will they be mutually intelligable so I can have them submit transcriptions online and I can grade them? Help! (I really appreciate whoever sits around to answer these, it's so helpful)

Pañuelo24.123.234.125 20:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The IPA article has links to online resources for IPA input. If it's fonts you want, the IPA article also links to Doulos SIL, Charis SIL and Gentium. (Get the Unicode versions, not the legacy versions.) My personal favourite is DejaVu Sans. --Kjoonlee 21:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * But for printing, I might use Gentium or Doulos SIL. I've been getting very fond of Gentium lately. :) --Kjoonlee

What is the word origin of "sticks in my craw"?
What is the word origin of "sticks in my craw"?


 * The word "craw" refers to the crop or stomach, usually of an animal. To "stick in the craw" literally means to get stuck during or following swallowing. This explains why the idiom means "to leave an unpleasant feeling". The word "craw" is related to the Danish word "kro" and the Dutch word "kraag", meaning craw or neck.  I'm not sure whether it entered English from Anglo-Saxon or through borrowing from Dutch or Old Norse. Apparently it can be traced to an Indo-European root, *gwrogh, which meant something like "throat" or "gullet".  Marco polo 22:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There's an entry on this expression in fossil words by the way Adambrowne666 04:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)