Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 December 7

= December 7 =

Chinese characters
Hi, could someone help me convert these three Traditional characters into machine-readable format: ? I was told it's a historical person's name. Thank you very much! DHN (talk) 07:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There should only be two: 達觀 (pinyin: dáguān), which means "having a comprehensive view of things" or simply "optimistic". The only historical person with this name I can think of is Zhou Daguan. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 08:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks K.C. DHN (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there a culture where it is ordinary for people to know 5 languages?
What about 4? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.225.183 (talk • contribs) 08:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't know for sure, but I doubt it. There are a good number of cultures in the world that have two languages that are regular (some examples would be Catalonia, the Quechua regions and other minority places). There are a number of regions where there is a main language, and a couple of minor languages. For exapmle, there ie Switzerland, each region is either Italian, German, or French, and often a citizen will speak one of the other languages, but not too well. In Kenya, there are many parts where people will speak the local tribal language, Swahili, and English, bringing the number to three. However, I don't know of any place in the world where a good number of people speak more than three languages; it simply becomes too cumbersome, and only a few people will speak more than 3. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it was a friend from Finland who once told me he had to learn Swedish as well. That would up it to 3 if that's common. - Woo ty   [ Woot? ]  [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam! ] 09:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Learning Swedish is compulsory in Finnish schools, but most non-native speakers never really advance beyond the basics of Swedish. A  ecis Brievenbus 00:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You may be interested in reading List of multilingual countries and regions, there are some places that are officially trilingual (such as Luxembourg) but there don't seem to be any where there are 4 official languages in use. Of course, the poor translators at the United Nations or European Union who have to translate speeches and texts into all kinds of strange forms may know more. 86.21.74.40 (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

86: Thanks for the link. Looks like it's normal to speak 4 in the Dutch West Indies: In the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba, where Dutch is the official language, but most inhabitants of Curaçao, Aruba and Bonaire are multilingual and speak Papiamento, Dutch, English and Spanish. 66.91.225.183 (talk) 10:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Somewhere like Malaysia you have to learn Malay, English and Mandarin, and if you're ethically Chinese you might know Cantonese, Hokkein or some other dialect/language (language in the sense that if you don't speak that, you cannot understand it). --antilivedT 10:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

WHAT ABOUT SINGAPORE?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.59.14 (talk) 11:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be normal for an educated Berber living (there are probably 100,000s of these) somewhere like Casablanca, or even in a Berber town like Agadir to use Tashelhiyt, Standard Arabic, Moroccan Arabic and French on a daily basis. Of course, I'll let that person decide whether that's 3 or 4 languages, but it certainly is 4 distinct varieties.
 * Or an educated Suba in Western Kenya would speak Suba, Dholuo, Kiswahili and English. One could probably find quite a few examples of people like this speaking a local, regional, national and international language (again, all used within the society, potentially on a daily basis). Drmaik (talk) 11:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Switzerland is multilingual and has four national languages: German, French, Italian and Romansh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaundersW (talk • contribs) 11:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but very few people actually know all four of them. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 14:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, yet virtually all native Romansh speakers are functionally bilingual with German as their other language. If you count the Alemannic/Standard German diglossia, they could be characterized as trilingual, and if you add the standardized Rumantsch Grischun to their native dialect (Sursilvan, Vallader etc.) I guess you could count it as quadrilingual. In addition, all native Romansh speakers with higher education that I have met also learned French, Italian, and English before they graduated with a Matura in their late teens. There are not very many native Romansh speakers in Switzerland, however, and even less who studied Romansh as a second language. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In Mauritius, I've heard most people know English, French, and Mauritian Creole French; in addition, lots of Indo-Mauritian people know whichever of the languages of India is appropriate to their ethnic group. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 14:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This has all been very helpful. Can we agree that the Dutch West Indies is the only place on earth where you will find non-minorities speaking 4 languages? 128.54.77.37 (talk) 20:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have spent a fair amount of time in Switzerland and it is quite common for people to speak several languages. All children are required to learn German, Italian, French and Romansch in school, and most people speak English as well. And people who know Spanish are not unusual either.--Filll (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is unusual almost anywhere for a majority of people to have a real command of more than two languages. In the case of Mauritius, I would bet that only the well-educated minority has a real command (conversational near fluency) of both standard French and English. Even in Germany and the Netherlands, where everyone is supposed to speak English, I have found that, outside of professional and managerial circles and the travel industry, most people have a limited English vocabulary at best and struggle to communicate beyond the most simple exchanges like "Where is the train station?", "Over there." People who may have studied a language in school (years ago) typically do not develop or maintain a real command of that language unless they use it regularly. In Tanzania, where most people speak a tribal language at home but learn Swahili and English at school (though not everyone goes to school), few people have a real command of more than two languages. Typically, this would be the tribal language and Swahili, but in the main city, Dar es Salaam, it might be Swahili and English. I suspect Kenya is similar. Well-educated people will have a command of both English and Swahili and maybe a tribal language as well, but they are a relatively small minority. Marco polo (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The cleaning lady in the office where I work is from Mauritius and is not especially well educated, but she is certainly fluent in English, French, and Mauritian Creole, not to mention German since she's lived in Germany for the last 26 years. She doesn't speak her ancestors' Bhojpuri, though. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 21:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I once read a linguistics article about how in earlier times a certain region of South America (probably somewhere in inland northern Brazil) was marked by fairly extreme multilingualism (since a number of relatively small tribes speaking rather different languages lived in somewhat close proximity). AnonMoos (talk) 00:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Papua New Guinea has had a history of multilingualism - many areas have a different language in different villages or groups of villages, and there is sometimes a taboo on marrying someone from your own group, so a woman will usually marry people who speak a different language, and your mother will speak a different language. There was one (I don't remember which) that I learnt about when studying language contact where it was a matter of prestige to switch languages often to reiterate a point. Steewi (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's it - Taiap. Steewi (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Is anyone here familiar with the worls of linguist David Crystal? I can't find it now, but I believe he gave an example of market traders in India or Pakistan (the implication being that these were not people who had had much formal education) being able to deal comfortably in several languages. This example may have been given in his Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, but I have a feelign it lies elsewhere. Anyone? BrainyBabe (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not finding anything specific in the four pages of his Encyclopedia on multilingualism. — I've read of a town in India where three languages are spoken, each being the common language for some sphere of life. Two of the three are Dravidian and one Aryan (or the reverse), and they form a sprachbund in that the local dialects have adopted parallel constructions from each other, thus diverging from the standard varieties of all three.  Does this ring any bells? —Tamfang (talk) 06:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that's not it, I'm afraid. I recall it as an anecdote about one archetypical man, a trader. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Austrian postal service slogan
The slogan of the Austrian postal service is Die Post bringt allen was. Please could someone (a) translate and (b) parse this sentence for me? My guess is that it means something like "we deliver everything", but I'm sure this rough translation could be improved upon. And why allen - what case is this, and why? Many thanks. --Richardrj talkemail 08:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The Post (Office) brings everyone something. I suppose they are trying to give it a personal feel.  Lanfear's Bane |  t  11:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It's word play. Literally: "The mail/postal service brings something to everyone." (In the form of letters and packages.) But also: "The postal service benefits everyone." Jemandem etwas bringen can also mean to benefit someone. "Allen" is dative (plural). ---Sluzzelin talk  11:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So was in this sentence is short for etwas, is it? How is one supposed to spot that, given that was is also a word (I was trying to work "what" into the slogan somehow).  Is this a common short form of etwas? --Richardrj talkemail 13:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's an extremely common form of etwas. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 13:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Query about Flemish
I've been asked by a work colleague who is interested in learning Flemish to see if I can find information on it (e.g.language books, cds, etc.) for her. I didn't really know anything about the language, except that it was related to Dutch, but I'm really confused now after reading the article here!

Most language books and cds I can find seem to be for Dutch, with many fewer for Flemish, and I'm wondering if there is enough of a difference that she should choose a specifically Flemish one, or would Dutch be ok?

Any information or thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Snorgle (talk) 11:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Surely someone with specific knowledge on this will pop out a precise answer. In the meantime, I suggest reading Flemish. Pallida  Mors  11:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops. Maybe you have read it already! Flemish can be thought of a family of dialects of Dutch, as far as I understand. Hence, there will be surely more material on Dutch than on Flemish.


 * If your colleague wants specific information on Flemish, I would suggest getting specific Flemish material. But if she just wants to learn some of it, Dutch material could be handy, I guess. Pallida  Mors  11:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * According to our article Flemish (linguistics) the term applied to language is rather ambiguous. It can refer to a specific Dutch dialect, West Flemish, which is spoken in parts of the Netherlands, Belgium and France, and may or may not include Zealandic. Or it can refer to a group of dialects also including East Flemish. The areas where dialects from this larger group are spoken include most of the former County of Flanders, from which the dialect has its name. It does not include all of the areas of Belgium where a Dutch dialect is spoken, because there are also the Brabantian and Limburgish dialects. For example, Brussels and Antwerp are in the Brabantian region. Then an entirely different but quite common meaning is the variety of standard Dutch heard from Dutch speakers in Belgium. I assume this is mainly a matter of accent, while there will of course also be a continuum of shifts in vocabulary as you move from North to South (or from East to West, for that matter). It will be hard to find language books on the dialects, in the unlikely case that that is what is intended, but then also it has to be made clear for which of the various meanings of Flemish. There is supposed to be no difference between Standard Netherlands Dutch and Standard Belgian Dutch; there is just Standard Dutch, which is officially regulated by the Nederlandse Taalunie. --Lambiam 12:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm dutch and I understand spoken flemish, but it's not that easy. If your colleague wants to learn flemish, I would strongly recommend s/he uses courses in flemish, not in dutch. Speaking and understanding a new language is hard enough as it is, there is no need to complicate matters by learning a different dialect. Just do a search with "language course" flemish on the net to find courses.Lova Falk (talk) 12:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If your colleague is primarily interested in learning to read and write the language, keep in mind that the written language of Flemish-speaking Belgium is essentially identical to the written language of the Netherlands; the differences between Flemish and standard Dutch are pretty much exclusively in the realm of the spoken language. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 14:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Flemish generally refers to the form of Dutch spoken in the Flemish Region of Belgium. The only differences between this Flemish Dutch and Dutch Dutch are in the pronounciation of certain words and letters (most notably the g), and in the word order in some sentences. It would be comparable to the difference between US English and Australian English. But when the various dialects of Flanders are concerned, there can be strong differences. West Flemish, for instance, is barely comprehensible to someone from the Netherlands; it's even barely comprehensible for most Flemish people. But these are all dialects and variations within a single language, which is Dutch. I assume that your colleague is misunderstood; I suppose he/she wants to learn the language of Flanders, which is just Dutch. A ecis Brievenbus 00:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as a person who has learnt to speak Flemish as a second language I think you will find it close to impossible to find a manual or course that teaches Flemish as a separate language. Since WWII there has been a major effort to standardize what is referred to as NederlandsItalic text. This effort has largely taken place under the aegis of the Taalunie (Language Union) a joint consultative body comprising academics and politicians from both sides of the border. The result of their work was the creation of an artificial language known as Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands "General Civilized/polite Dutch" or ABN, which was subsequently renamed Algemeen Nederlands or AN. Critics argue that AN stifles creativity and wit, and furthermore that it gives too much weight to the Dutch component. Proponents point out that the Dutch spoken south of the the Moerdijk was so fragmented that something had to be done to standardized the language sufficiently for it to return it to the status of "a language of culture" (cultuurtaal) instead of remaining an ethnic curiosity. There can be no doubt that Flemish nationalist aspirations played a role in the process. However, current developments seem to underline that language is difficult to control. In the south (northern Belgium) we have seen the emergence of something called "verkavelingsvlaams" (housing estate Flemish), whereas the Dutch spoken north of the border continues to be influenced by the language of the Randstad (Holland's highly urbanized coastal strip). Other divisive factors include divergent legislation, and the changing media landscape. The latter in particular merits attention. Until the establishment of VTM (an independent Flemish cable television broadcaster)in 1989 the sole source of television broadcasts in Flemish was the BRT (Belgian Radio and Television) and many Flemings would tune to the Dutch broadcasters as an alternative. Since 1989 other commercial cable broadcasters have joined VTM, thus diminishing interest in the Dutch broadcasters. At the same time the already chaotic Dutch broadcast system was further fragmented by the arrival of purely commercial cable broadcasters such as Veronica, which cannot be received in Belgium. As a result "Flanders" (which includes parts of Brabant and Limburg as well)is developing its own TV culture. This is a "homogenizing force" (pace Daniel Boorstin]that tends to amplify the influence of "verkavelingsvlaams" as the dominant Dutch dialect south of the Dutch border. Augusta2 (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Cunning linguists required
Inspired by this thread, I feel compelled to ask if any other language enjoys the rich potential for good clean filth that English does? DuncanHill (talk) 12:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * German certainly does - two of my favourites are "Schwesternschaft" (sisterhood, but it sounds more like the sisters' nasty bits) and "Damenstift" (about the same as above). In the German translation of The Meaning of Liff (which is pretty excellent), the word used for something that for some reason sounds terribly naughty while being totally innocent is "Schwarzenstein". I guess that German's propensity for composite words, along with its wide array of words used for naughty bits (pretty much any word meaning "long, thin thing", "very hard thing" or "very soft thing" can be used with a sexual connotation) helps a lot with creating lots of perfectly innocent filth -- Ferkelparade &pi; 13:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind me saying, but Ferkelparade sounds like some frightfully efficient display of something quite disgusting. DuncanHill (talk) 13:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mind if I copy/paste that as a quote to my user page? -- Ferkelparade &pi; 13:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Be my guest! DuncanHill (talk) 13:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In Argentina, coger (quite a common verb in Spanish) has evolved into a very dirty word (i. e. fuck). Hence, the phrase porcino cojo (which elsewhere only means "lame pig") sounds exactly as por si no cojo, which means to an Argentine "in case I can't get laid"). Pallida  Mors  21:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Does that have anything to do with "old codger" = old f***er? (Tangent: And why aren't there any young codgers?  If they're all old, "old" seems redundant to me.) --  JackofOz (talk) 22:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I believe there's no relation. As coger means to take in Spanish, I guess that the verb started to get a meaning like the one of have in "to have her". Then, other verbs started to be used for take, like tomar, and coger's main meaning remained that of strong sexual connotations. Disclaimer: Remember that the responder is not a qualified etymologist.
 * In regard to poor old codgers, I guess the old gives just a touch of tenderness. Doesn't it? Pallida  Mors  00:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there are no young codgers for the same reason there are no old whippersnappers. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 15:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a common Dutch joke about this, how innocent words can become rude in another language. A Dutch horse breeder is trying to explain his profession to a foreigner: "I fok horses." "PARDON?" "Yes, paarden" Fok comes from the verb fokken, which means "to breed". Paarden (singular: paard) means "horse". A ecis Brievenbus 00:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I doubt there's a language where you *can't* be filthy. Chinese has perhaps one of the more varied systems of filth. In addition to Cantonese, Hokkien, Wu, Mandarin-types and so on, each having their own vulgarities, each subdialect will vary in their use of vulgarity. Moreover, the limited Chinese syllable structure allows for easy punning. Unfortunately, as a somewhat artificial standard, Mandarin doesn't have nearly as much of a developed sense of vulgarity as colloquial language. Many Chinese people will tell you it's much more satisfying to swear in your own dialect. Steewi (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And do'nt believe anyone who tells you their language has no swearwords. It's simply not true. Steewi (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A 1970s commercial for Finnish Leijona (lion) candies had a lion saying Mitäs tykkäät, jos tulisin suuhun, meaning "How would you like if I came in your mouth". In the 1970s, this was perfectly innocent, but now the Finnish verb tulla has adopted the second meaning of "to come", making the commercial seem filthy. Also, a panel from the Finnish translation of "Rasmus the Bear", a Swedish comic, is circulating the Internet. In it, Rasmus is shaking the hand of someone else, and saying Anteeksi, minulla oli muna kädessä ("Sorry, I had an egg in my hand"). Since the 1980s, muna has also had a slang meaning "penis". The fact that the panel shows egg yolk sprouting from Rasmus's hand only adds to the effect. J I P | Talk 20:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

origin of the phrase "the whole nine yards" 24.233.154.150 (talk) 23:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for the origin and source of the phrase "the whole nine yards" please. Thanks. 24.233.154.150 (talk) 23:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We have an article The whole nine yards. Friday (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Which fails to state plainly that the origin of the phrase is not known. Okay, now it does. --Anon, 03:03 UTC, December 8, 2007.

Added link to further earlier attestations on article talk page... AnonMoos (talk) 14:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)