Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 1

= February 1 =

Retroflex non-lateral allophone of /l/
Hi, if anyone knows anything about Bavarian German, please take a look at the question I've asked at Talk:Austro-Bavarian. Thanks! —Angr 15:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Deutsche Band?
What does "Haben Sie Gehört das Deutsche Band?" mean?

AlexanderTG 18:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"Have you heard the German band?"

The syntax is as follows: haben + gehört is a compound construction of the verb to have, 'haben' and the participle of the verb (in this case, 'hören,' to hear), just as in English. 'Sie' is the second person singular formal pronoun. 'Das' is the neuter definite article, as 'Band' is a neuter (that is, neither masculine nor feminine - i.e. he, she and it) noun. 'Deutsche' is the form of the adjective meaning German, and has the -e ending because it is placed after the definite article. Word order with the verb in first position reflects that appropriate for the asking of a question.
 * (after e.c.):The incorrect word order and the fact that it should be die Deutsche 'Band suggest that it's making fun of the way some non-native speakers speak German (and the way they see Germans, the lyrics are full of cultural clichés). It means Did you hear the German band? and the grammatically correct phrase would be: Haben Sie die Deutsche Band gehört?. Das Band does exist, and Haben Sie gehört? Das Deutsche Band! Would be gramatically correct, but wouldn't make much sense in the context of the song's lyrics. It would mean: Did you hear? The German ribbon! ---Sluzzelin 18:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * For cultural clichés:
 * "Polish polkas, they're stupid und they're rotten
 * It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that
 * Schweigen-reigen-schöne-schützen-schmützen sauerbraten! " (from Haben Sie Gehört Das Deutsche Band.
 * So, I guess the title was created to follow the exact English word order, for the audience's sake: Haben/have, gehört/heard, and Band/band sound similar enough, while Sie, das and Deutsche are understandable to many audience members. ---Sluzzelin 19:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As I recall, the supposed translation was given right in the script: "Have you ever heard the German band? No.  That is the name of the song that I am going to sing..."--Pharos 09:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Decipherment of Akkadian
At what point was Akkadian deciphered in the modern era? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.16.23.78 (talk)
 * The mid 1800s. See Cuneiform script. --Miskwito 21:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Words that mark you as an outsider
There's a collective term for these that I cannot remember. Primary example is a wartime password, that you either pronounce like a local or an outsider, hence being harder to fake. Thanks :) --Quiddity 21:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Shibboleth? ---Sluzzelin 21:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I couldn't stop thinking of fnord and macguffin. --Quiddity 21:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want to know how shibboleths work, please take a look at distinctive feature and phoneme. Languages use different phonemes and different phonemes have different distinctive features; if a feature isn't distinctive in your language, you can't hear or reproduce it consistently or correctly. --Kjoonlee 19:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay with you, Kjoon, but it is not 'your language' that inhibits. It's your phonation organs that can't learn more when you grow old. -- DLL .. T 11:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh no, it's not your phonation organs. I learned to pronounce the close back compressed vowel, the close front rounded vowel, and the palatal lateral approximant long after I passed puberty. If you know what to listen for, or how to move your tongue (in the latter case it might be subconcious) then you can still learn. As for the effect of age on language acquisition, yes, there's the Critical Period Hypothesis. --Kjoonlee 13:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please also note that phonation refers to how the your vocal cords (vocal folds) work, not how all your speech organs work. If you wanted to say that your speech organs can no longer learn, I'd say that it's just that people get used to only listening for (and reproducing) their own distinctive features. --Kjoonlee 14:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Garment question
Why the heck are pants, trousers, shorts, etc. plural? Clarityfiend 22:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Most likely because we humans have two legs which must be simultaneously clothed by the garment. -Fsotrain09 22:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (after e.c.)There's an explanation under Hose (clothing). Originally, people wore two separate items, which gradually became one. I suppose not all of the words from your list have this etymology, but the plural was applied in functional analogy to the hosen or trousers. ---Sluzzelin 22:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See also Pluralia tantum... AnonMoos 23:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You'll often find the wording: "pair of pants/trousers/shorts" etc. - so the plural form of the noun omits that as understood. -- Deborahjay 10:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

French Mistake on MacDonalds' Stuff
Am I wrong when I think that on MacDonalds drinks and wrappers, the French translation of "I'm loving it" into "C'est ca que j'm" is wrong and instead should be "C'est ca que j'aime"? ChowderInopa 23:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't know French SMS speak, do you? In French, the letter M in the alphabet is a quasi-homophone of aime. When the cool kids use their GSMs to text, they write that way. --Diderot 23:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't it be abbreviated further, "C ca k'j'm" or something? 惑乱 分からん 23:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but then the grown-ups can't figure out what it means. It's important when you sell stuff that no one actually needs to be cool without being alienating. --Diderot 00:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"I'm lovin' it" is the type of "incorrect" colloquial English by young people, so they needed an equivalent to that in French. -- Mwalcoff 01:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the m is a reference to the word 'McDonald's' Duomillia 04:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That may well be right. The "Mc" or "Mac" of Scottish names was once written "M'", as in "M'Arthur".  JackofOz 06:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * THE translation is "C'est ça que j'...", don't forget the cedilla. Thank you. -- DLL .. T 11:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The M in the expression is also a throwback to the McDonald's logo which is a big M.Youkai no unmei 18:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)