Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 12

= February 12 =

Zahatra
I have a female friend whose first name is ZAHATRA. She is a Croatian and this is definitely not a Croatian name. Both her parents are dead and she does not know the origin of the name and asked for my help. I Googled for the term and the only results I got were from sites of Madagascar origin and those are also written in Malagasy which, of course, I don't speak. I also couldnt find anybody who does. In the only Malagasy-English dictionary on-line I only found the term ZAHA which translates as "To seek" or "To look for"... Can anybody help me and my friend? Thank you in advance.

Marko Krema, Rijeka, Croatia 89.172.163.12 08:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It could possibly be a distortion or respelling of some other name. What heritage do her parents have? 惑乱 分からん 11:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Wakuran! Her parents are both Croatian but it doesn't mean a lot since we do have a custom of choosing names that are out of the traditional list of "national" names. Marko89.172.177.15 17:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there a plural of the noun 'research' ?
Does the noun research have a plural? I can't find one described as such in any online dictionary, but I can certainly find examples of people writing about 'researches' that they performed, for example. Thanks if someone can give a definitive (pun intended) answer.


 * I find it very awkward to say "researches". If it's all related work, then it's a collective singular: research, no plural.  For different kinds of work, I'm inclined to say something like "research programmes". --Diderot 15:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'd say research is a mass noun, just as "sand". 惑乱 分からん 15:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the Wiktionary entry research, research is an uncountable noun. This means it has no plural by definition; it is something that exists only in continuous quantities if any, but not in discrete (countable) quantities. &mdash; If you are trying to find the plural, then you are probably trying to use the word research in a meaning that it doesn't have. Perhaps you're looking for studies or publications. &mdash; Timwi 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. OED gives a number of quotes containing the quite obvious plural form: One might disagree with the use of the plural in these sentences, but it is well referenced and used by good writers of English. — Gareth Hughes 16:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1794 GODWIN Cal. Williams 210, I carefully avoided the habitation..lest it should..furnish a clue to the researches of my pursuers.
 * 1827 DISRAELI Viv. Grey VI. iii, Fortune has not favoured me..in my researches after a bed.
 * 1889 Nature 19 Sept. 493/2 Constant explorations are being carried out..chiefly in researches after gold and other precious metals.
 * 1728 YOUNG Love Fame VI. 413 Ye men of deep researches, say, whence springs This daring character, in tim'rous things?
 * 1752 HUME Ess. & Treat. (1777) II. 9 These researches may appear painful and fatiguing.
 * 1799 J. ROBERTSON Agric. Perth 290 Our most profound researches are frequently nothing better than guessing at the causes of the phenomena.
 * 1830 D'ISRAELI Chas. I, III. iii. 26 Such ambiguous facts..often baffle the researches of the historian.
 * 1850 SIR B. BRODIE Psychol. Inq. I. i. 12 Cuvier was usually engaged for seven hours daily in his scientific researches.
 * 1870 YEATS Nat. Hist. Comm. 5 Fresh necessities have led continually to fresh researches.
 * 1917 Rep. Fuel Research Board 10 The *Research Station, as planned, will be capable of any extensions which will be required for future researches.


 * Many (most, even) of those quotes don't use "research" in the same sense that it's used in (most commonly) in modern English. Tesseran 06:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Languages change with time. It seems to me "research" was originally a calque from French, where it's most often in the plural and less often in the singular. I would still say that it's awkward to say "researches" in present-day English, notwithstanding that it might have been different in the past. --Diderot 08:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Correct Spelling of Scissors
What is correct; scissor or scissors when the word modifies the word, blade?

Karen Kuranz


 * The plural form is the only form of the noun (you can have the verb 'to scissor', though). So, I would suggest 'scissors blade' if you have to use a 'bus stop' construction in English. Writing 'scissors' blade' or 'blade of scissors' might be preferable. — Gareth Hughes 16:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * English is not always so logical. Google phrase searches show that the forms "scissor blade" and "scissors blade" are about equally common, so they should both be considered correct.  "Scissor kick" is much more common than "scissors kick". --Anonymous, February 13, 04:01 (UTC).


 * You should probably look it up in a dictionary. Google isn't a reliable source in this regard because there's far too many people online who misspell words. Try looking up the word "teh" instead of "the". - Mgm|(talk) 11:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, try it. At the moment I get about 27,200,000 hits for teh... and about 5,790,000,000 for the.  So the correct spelling is about 200 times as common.  That's very different from the results for the searches I did above.  There are all sorts of things that can make Google counts misleading, but I see no reason so disbelieve these results.  (Incidentally, I was amused to see that the top-ranked hit on "the" was The Onion.  This was followed by the White House, The Independent, and the BBC in that order; in all four cases it was the official web sites.) --Anonymous, February 15, 2007, 01:23 (UTC).

I looked it up in a dictionary. Chambers English Dictionary, Edinburgh, 2003: defines scissor blade (not scissors blade) and both scissor kick and scissors kick. Notinasnaid 11:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be 'scissor blade' in the same way we use 'pant leg.' z ε n   &#xF8FF;  07:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Latin to English translation
Hi, I'm trying to improve the article about Polish cochineal. I would be extremely grateful if someone could translate for me the excerpt below (or at least some framgents of it). It was written by an 18th century English scholar and, as far as I can tell, it is about how dye is obtained from the insect's larvae.

''Color inde lanae, gossipio, lino, conciliatur dilute carmesinus. Modus tingendi talis est. Coquunt coccum in aheno cupreo, cum liquore, quem kwas (acidum) dicunt, et qui in Podolia, Russia, et Ucraina, pauperibus pro potu ordinario inservit. Parant vero hunc potum kwas ex farina secalina, quam infundunt aqua multa calida, et in loco tepido relinquunt, donec fermentatione acescat, et limpida fiat. Quantum quotidie de hoc liquore ebibunt, tantum addunt onvae aquae cum manipulo farinae. Breviori tempore idem fit, si fermentum acidum panis secalini pistorum cum multa aqua dilutatur, et in locum tepidum reponatur. Iam in hoc liquore coccum diu coquunt. Enascitur spuma et pinguedo valde multa, usque dum talis iam nihil appareat. Erit liquor pulcre sanguineus. Iam, lanam puram albam in alio aheno cum simili liquore kwas, et mediocri aluminis quantitate decoquunt, et salibus his bene imbutam exsiccant. Tandem lanam ita praeparatam, in liquorem illum sanguineum immittunt, et per aliquot minuta coquunt: sic in momento omnis color lanae adhaeret, et liquorem instar aquae limpidum relinquit. Lanam sic tinctam aqua frigida abluunt et exsiccant.''

''Rudis haec tractatio docet, quantum ille color emendari posset, si in vase stanneo, cum sale ammoniaco et solutione stanni tractaretur. Narrarunt mihi collectores, si animacula viva colligantur et enecentur, colorem inde obtineri multo elegantiorem; cui facile crediderim, si praesertim eadem sollicitudine colligerentur, ac fit cum cocco Mexicano (cui de cetero nostrum insectum valde simile videtur), et loco tostionis, in aceto enecarentur. Multum Chocimi inquisivi in id, quo Turci purpureo colore lanam insiciunt: sed tinctura illa non nisi in Asia minori exercetur. Omnes tamen dicunt, tincturam hanc obtineri ex baccis, quae ad radicem plantae Armeniacae, quam Romam apellunt, crescunt. Forte haec planta eadem cum potentilla alba, et forte etiam pulchritudo coloris non nisi ab artificio tinctoris pendet.''

''Quantitas cocci huius ad exteros exportari, ex Podolia, facile aliquot millia librarum quotannis excedit, et praetera multum domi consumitur. Maxima pars in Turciam abvehitur, magna etiam Breslaviam venit. Constat libra una 8-10 florenis Polonicis, et una libra fere 20 librae lanae tingi poussunt.''

&mdash; Kpalion(talk) 16:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I know nothing of the context or of 18th century Latin botany, but here is a rough and quick translation:


 * Then the color is united to the wool, cotton, flax [I don't know carmesinus]. This is the method of dying: they cook the coccum in a copper pot, with liquid which they call “kwas” (sour), and which in Poland, Russia, and Ukraine, serves as normal food for the poor. Then they prepare this drink “kwas” from flour [don't know secalina], in which they pour much hot water, and they leave in a hot place, until it becomes sour with fermentation, and becomes clear.  They add as much of the this liquid as they drink everyday to the new water [assuming onvae is a typo for novae] with a handful of flour.  The same is done for a shorter period of time, if the sour fermentation of [secalini] baker's bread is diluted with much water, and it is put back in a warm place.  Then in this liquid the coccum is cooked for a long time.  Foam and fat is produced in large quantity [as long as nothing appears??]. The liquid will be pleasantly blood-red.  Then they cook the pure white wool in another pot with similar “kwas” liquid and with a small quantity of alum, and they dry it out when it well-soaked with these salts [i.e. the alum?].  Finally they insert the wool prepared in this way in that blood-red liquid, and they cook it for a few minutes: thus in a moment all the color sticks to the wool, and it leaves a liquid clear like water.  Thus the cold water cleans and dries the dyed wool.


 * This rough treatment teaches how much that color could be improved if it was treated in a tin vessel with ammonia salt [apparently ammonia chloride] and a tin solution. Fellow students tell me, if living [animacula? Little animals?] are collected and killed, that from them a much more elegant color is obtained; which I would easily believe, especially if they were collected with the same concern, [and it makes with a Mexican coccum, sorry I'm not sure what to do with that] to which among others our insect seems greatly similar, and in a place of [tostio? Don't know that word] they are killed in vinegar.  I asked [multum Chocimi, don't know] about it, in which the Turks [don't know insiciunt, but probably has something to do with drying] wool with purple colour, but that dye is not cultivated anywhere except in Asia Minor.  Nevertheless everyone says that that dye is obtained from berries [the dictionary says these can be olives or coral, too], which arises at the root of the Armeniaca plant, which they call Roma.  Perhaps this same plant hangs with white [potentilla?], and perhaps also the beauty of the colour [depends?] not unless from artifical dye [sorry, obviously he means he thinks the colour is artificial].
 * The amount of this coccum to be exported to foreign lands from Poland easily exceeds some thousand pounds each year, and besides this much of it is consumed at home. The greatest part is exported to Turkey, and a great part also comes to Breslau.  One pound costs 8-10 Polish florins, and with one pound almost 20 pounds of wool can be dyed.


 * Hope that helps! I'm sure someone will provide a better translation. Adam Bishop 22:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Adam. This was a tremendous help. And thanks for replying so quickly as well. I tried to clean up your translation a little, with my knowledge of the topic. Please see what I got and let me know if I went too far with my interpretation at any point.


 * "The crimson dye is applied to wool, cotton and linen. This is the method of dying: they cook the cochineal in a copper pot, in a liquid they call “kwas” (kvass), which in Podolia, Russia and Ukraine serves as regular food for the poor. They prepare this drink from rye flour in which they pour much hot water, and which they leave in a warm place until it becomes sour with fermentation, and becomes clear. They add as much of this liquid as they drink everyday to the new water with a handful of flour. The same is done for a shorter period of time, if the fermentation of rye bread is diluted with much water, and it is put back in a warm place. Then in this liquid the cochineal is cooked for a long time. Scum and fat is produced in large quantities unil nothing more appears (?). [The purpose of dissolving dried cochineal in kvass was to remove fat.] The liquid will be pleasantly blood-red. Then they cook pure white wool in another pot with similar kvass and with a small quantity of alum, and they dry it out when it is well-soaked with these salts [i.e. alum]. Finally, they insert the wool prepared in this way in that blood-red liquid and they cook it for a few minutes: thus in a moment all the color sticks to the wool, and it leaves a liquid clear like water. The dyed wool is then cleansed with cold water and dried.


 * "This rough treatise teaches how much that color could be improved if it was treated in a tin vessel with ammonium salt [ ammonium chloride ] and a tin solution. Fellow students tell me that if living bugs are collected and killed, then a much more elegant color is obtained; which I would easily believe, especially if they were collected in the same way as the Mexican cochineal (to which, among others, our insect seems greatly similar), and if they were killed in vinegar instead of boiling water (?). I asked many people from Chocim what the Turks use to dye wool with purple color, but their dye [ kermes (?) ] is not cultivated anywhere outside Asia Minor. Nevertheless, everyone says that the dye is obtained from berries which grow on the roots of the Armenian plant which they call Roma (?). Perhaps this same plant hangs on the white cinquefoil and perhaps this is also what the beauty of the color depends on, unless the color is artificial (?).


 * "The amount of this cochineal exported from Poland to other countries easily exceeds some thousand pounds per year, and besides much of it is consumed at home. Most of it is exported to Turkey, and a great part also goes to Breslau. One pound costs 8-10 Polish florins, and with one pound almost 20 pounds of wool can be dyed."
 * &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 00:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Stoush?
What's a stoush? stuff.co.nz used the word to describe the John Howard-Barack Obama feud. Corvus cornix 21:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Fight or brawl" according to, marked as Australian informal. 惑乱 分からん 22:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wonder if it's spread to NZ, or just a Kiwi site using an Aussie term to describe an Aussie situation?  Corvus cornix 22:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Or just the dictionary not bothering about the distinction between Australian English and New Zealand English. —Angr 22:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)