Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 20

= February 20 =

International Phonetic Alphabet
is there a key to the International Phonetic Alphabet i hate that wikipedia uses International Phonetic Alphabet because i cant find a key for it anywwhere —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.121 (talk • contribs)


 * Have you tried International Phonetic Alphabet? Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This one is probably more helpful: IPA chart for English. Chl 01:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Try learning at least a rough approximation of more common characters. IPA is used precisely because it's relatively neutral (except for its Latin base), and more exact than English approximations. 惑乱 分からん 02:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, however, it's not neutral with respect to English dialects -- making an IPA transcription which is at all "narrow" quite oftens means having to arbitrariliy choose one English dialect (or class of English dialects) over others.... AnonMoos 04:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If the description is given phonologically in IPA, i.e., with // rather than [], it is less likely to cause confusion. There are phonological dialectal differences of course, but they will still be there if an arbitrary dictionary-style transcription is used. Would a final r  be schwa or an /r/? There are other good reasons not to use those ad-hoc transcription systems too. For one thing, everyone would have to agree to one invented for the purpose by some Wikipedia style sheet editor. That would be hard to imagine happening. For another, it would make it virtually impossible to discuss dialectal differences in articles dealing with that issue. Also, discussion of non-English pronunciations would be a mess. After all phrase books say that the a in padre is the same as that in father (which isn't the case unless your dialect is one with northern cities shift.The list can go on and on. Ultimately, the problem is that the Roman alphabet was not designed for phonological or phonetic transcription of English or any other language except classical Latin. Anyway, here's a site where you can hear IPA sounds [] mnewmanqc 14:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Bad Chinese written by non-native speakers?
What do you call bad Chinese written by non-native speakers? Like Chinglish but in reverse. Thanks 203.109.174.60 11:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's an English word for it. There might be a Chinese word, but English speakers probably would't understand it without an explanation... 惑乱 分からん 14:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hingyu :-) --Diderot 10:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, perhaps 黉语 héngyǔ would be more appropriate. --Diderot 17:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Alphabetizing mixed language titles
Hello.

I am working at a movie theater in the U.S. where we have a semi-annual film festival. Typically we feature a mixture of American independent releases and a few international films. When I design the brochure for the festival, I like to list the films in alphabetical order by their original title, with an English translation in parentheses where applicable. In years past, this hasn't been a problem, because all of the non-English films at least used the Latin alphabet.

This year, however, we have films from Russia and China. So while it is easy for me to find the proper place for El Laberinto del Fauno, I am less certain of Итальянец and 满城尽带黄金甲.

My guess for Итальянец is to transliterate it (in my mind) to Italianetz and place it right after The Good German. But I'm not so sure about 满城尽带黄金甲. According to the IMDb, it is transliterated as Man cheng jin dai huang jin jia, so should it go at the beginning of the M’s, right before Miss Potter, or is there a better place for it?

(Or am I wrong in wanting to use the Cyrillic and Chinese characters, and should I just print the transliterations?)



— Michael J  21:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * P.S.: Why is there no article for contemporary cinema in Russia, only for that from the czarist and Soviet eras?


 * According to the article Cinema of the Soviet Union, the post-Soviet film production seems to consist of primarily mass-produced commercialist bagatelles. Btw. don't international films often have an international title, aimed at foreign markets, in English? Can't you use that for sorting? 惑乱 分からん 00:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I like your paraphrasing better than what the article writes : "The new Russia's cinema is more profit-oriented, with artistic needs taking a backseat to more immediate desires. Much low-quality action, comedy and pornography has been filmed." Hello? ---84.75.111.138 01:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC) (user:Sluzzelin}


 * I think the most recent Russian movie I've seen is Russian Ark. Say what you will about it, it's not low-quality action, comedy, or pornography.  Wareh 01:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Russian Ark is mentioned as an exception. 惑乱 分からん 14:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I would contend that collation really only makes sense in monolingual contexts. I would do what Wakuran suggests, and list all the films by their English title, followed by their native title in the native writing system, followed by the standard transliteration of the native title (if applicable). You might also put the language, like this:


 * Curse of the Golden Flower (满城尽带黄金甲, Man cheng jin dai huang jin jia) [Chinese]
 * English Movie Title
 * The Italian (Итальянец, Italianetz) [Russian]
 * Pan's Labyrinth (El Laberinto del Fauno) [Spanish]

Nohat 01:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I would add that all these movies do have official English titles, which are meant to be used in English-language contexts, such as film festivals that take place in the United States. That is, I don't think it's appropriate to use the Spanish name "El Labirinto del Fauno" in an English language context except in the case where you are identifying the original Spanish title as the original Spanish title. Nohat 01:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. I do mean to say that I think that IMDB gets this wrong, by using as the default title the title in the original language (or Latin transliterations thereof). I understand the desire to be more multicultural and not anglocentric, and I fully support identifying original foreign names (and even in their original foreign writing system), but I think English speakers are best served by referring to the movies by their English names, because that is how English speakers are going to be referring them. Unless they already are a Spanish or Chinese or Russian speaker, the people at your film festival are going to call the movies by their English names. Nohat 02:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC) There's always the option to order them by their unicode entry. That was a joke, do what Nohat says. 61.25.248.86 04:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * To Nohat's suggestion, I would add the country of origin instead of the language. I know that might seem odd, but it is pretty standard for films.  That way you know that Pan's Labyrinth is from Spain, instead of just in Spanish.  Might not be a problem this year, but in the future a film with two primary languages could be nominated, then the country of origin becomes more important. --Cody.Pope 05:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, putting the country is probably a better idea. Also, you should probably use the proper Pinyin for the Chinese transliteration, which is Mǎnchéng Jìndài Huángjīnjiǎ for "Curse of the Golden Flower", at least according to Curse of the Golden Flower. Nohat 08:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The Thai-Japanese movie Last Life in the Universe features both Thai, Japanese and English language. Quite good, actually. 惑乱 分からん 14:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Re Nohat's point: one difficulty for IMDB is that a single film may have 2 different titles in 2 different English-speaking markets, often decided by different distributors. The name of La Reine Margot was untranslated in UK-IRL, but Queen Margot at the Oscars; Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain was variously Amelie or Amelie from Montmartre.  For a Film Festival, you might import a single print of a very obscure movie with no established translation (presumably with no subtitles; a silent movie maybe? ).  I nevertheless endorse Nohat's advice. jnestorius(talk) 17:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

bach
What is the derivation of the New Zealand word bach?NJ Dunlop 21:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know but it sounds like the common Welsh expression "bach". If that's the case, then it's not "a New Zealand word", just a word used in New Zealand borrowed from Welsh immigrants.  JackofOz 21:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to my two dictionaries of NZ slang, it comes from a c1862 American term for a bachelor, hence, a house small enough only for one guy. Z iggurat 21:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the OED, the New Zealand word referring to a house is first recorded in 1927. The American term for a confirmed bachelor is first recorded in 1855. Both are of course shortenings of "bachelor", but I suspect they developed independently. -- Necrothesp 16:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)