Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 January 16

= January 16 =

punctuation
What is the correct punctuation in this sentence? "Finish the chapter," said Miss Salazar and then we'll discuss the story,"

"Finish the chapter," said Miss Salazar, "and then we'll discuss the story." or "Finish the chapter," said Miss Salazar. "And then we'll discuss the story." Wolfgangus 03:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The correct punctuation is "Finish the chapter," said Miss Salazar, "and then we'll discuss the story." She says one complete sentence, so there should be no capital for "and", and (in British English) because it's a complete sentence the final full point is contained within the quotation marks.--Shantavira 09:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Shantavira's solution is correct for American English too, because the final period (point) is always inside the quotation marks. Marco polo 14:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

punctuation 2
What is the correct punctuation in this sentence?

After knitting the sweater: he tried it on for size. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reid44 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC).


 * After knitting the sweater, he tried it on for size. Wolfgangus 03:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

punctuation
What is the correct punctuation in this sentence or is this right?

We grow the following vegetables, corn, lettuce, carrots, and green beans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reid44 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I'd put a colon after "vegetables". We grow the following vegetables: corn, lettuce, carrots, and green beans.  Otherwise, it reads as if you're about to list the various kinds of vegetables, then the various kinds of corn, ..... and finally the various kinds of green beans - but you never get to actually listing any of them.  This causes the reader to go back to the start and re-compute the meaning.  The colon tells the reader that what follows is the list of things referred to be "the following vegetables".  JackofOz 02:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Some styles say to capitalize the first letter after the colon, some don't. But that's not punctuation. And these questions sound a bit like homework. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Punctuation styles also differ from country to country. I've been taught not to put a comma before "and" in a list. - Mgm|(talk) 13:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * the oxford-style (think that's the term) is to list items with commas included before the last item in the list (i.e. beans, lettuce, and tomato), but many do not. The colon-part is useful as it would denote that a list follows and gives a 'pause' before starting the list. ny156uk 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oxford comma. --Shantavira 09:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, put a colon after "vegetables", and, for optimal health, put lots of vegetables through your colon. :-) StuRat 07:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Does any language have a word for this?
There's a particular sensation or emotion you feel when you fail to do something that is normally a habit for you. For example, I nearly always look both ways when I cross the road. But sometimes, when I cross a one-way street, I look only in the one direction from which cars should come before crossing. When I do this, I feel a nearly physical pull to look in the other direction as well, even though I know it's unnecessary. You could almost describe it as a mental itch. As another example, some people who wear watches complain that they feel uneasy or even "naked" when they forget to wear a watch. Does any language have a word or description for this phenomenon? --Grace 05:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Classical conditioning? Adam Bishop 06:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Habitual? --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 09:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Stress seems to generally fit your description. I'm not aware of anything so specific. &mdash; Kieff 11:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If it's really really serious it would be obsessive-compulsive disorder. --Kjoonlee 15:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Obsession? Anxiousness? --Kjoonlee 15:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you all saying you haven't experienced it? I assumed it was fairly common, so I was wondering whether any language has a word to describe the sensation - not the condition. --Grace 01:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

My family has a particular phrase for this while driving. If one of us needs to drive along the road they normally take to work, we tend to turn off at the work exit, even if that isn't correct for our current destination. We describe this by saying "the car was on autopilot". StuRat 07:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Psychosomatic? -LambaJan 05:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, in Spanish the behaviour you are talking about is called "tener una compulsión"~.

For instance, due to personal safety reasons, I have a compulsión for checking corners walking in the street, as when you do when you play a First-person shooter  Randroide 19:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't just wash one hand. Even if I spilled something on just my right hand, say, I'll feel very uncomfortable unless I get my left hand wet as well. Sometimes I'll turn away from the sink, then go back and "needlessly" wash my left hand. I've heard this is a possible symptom or indicator of OCPD. Tesseran 21:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's it exactly! I guess I have a mild case of OCPD... --Grace 21:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Is the following sentence ungrammatical?
For what did you hit me? --Vineet Chaitanya —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.141.96.146 (talk) 10:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It's ambiguous. It could mean "why" or it could mean "for what reward". It's not really ungrammatical, but it isn't normal English usage (although it may have been in the past... it has a smack of archaism). I suspect you want "Why did you hit me?" which is unambiguous, which is useful when someone's hitting you. --Dweller 11:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A possible alternative, a little more aggrieved in tone, is "What did you hit me for?" There is a slight ambiguity, but you're unlikely to be misunderstood. --Richardrj talkemail 11:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it qualifies as grammatical according to some set of textbook rules of English, but as has been pointed out, no native English speaker would say such a thing in a natural context. Linguists of most stripes would regard grammaticality as being tightly bound to such judgments, so on that basis I would consider it ungrammatical.  "What did you hit me for?" and "Why did you hit me?" are both correct alternatives according to my judgment.  A few prescriptive syntax nutters will tell you the first is ungrammatical because it leaves a stranded preposition.  A few of those might, in turn, prescribe "For what did you hit me?" But they're nuts and you can tell them so. This strikes me as the kind of unnecessary pedantry that was once imposed on English by busybodies.  Preposition stranding is a common feature of Germanic languages dating back to before they were systematically written languages.  English has probably always allowed this kind of construction.  --Diderot 11:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for all the responses. --Vineet Chaitanya

Language / Grammar
Why are these sentences wrong, any way you would be able to explain to me and possibly help me by showing me or telling me where the mistakes areand how I wouild correct them?

Thanking you kindly


 * 2. I would say 'I went to the bank yesterday' or 'I've been to the bank'. I'm not sure I can explain gramaticaly why - it just sounds right. Oh, and yesterday is spelt wrong.
 * 4. I think you'd be better saying 'Because I was taking/having a bath' - If I'm interpreting the grammer pages of Wikipedia correctly, you're using the pluperfect/past perfect which implies an action is completed - i.e. the bath was completed when the telephone rang - at least to my ears. You want to use the past progressive.
 * In general they are fine, although read like the sentences one is taught in language classes - simple, stilted and not quite natural. I mean in reality in those circumstances a conversation would go more along the lines of:
 * "I´d like some information s about your courses."
 * "Certainly! Here, have a brochure - this should cover any basic questions you have. Can I help you with anything in particular?"
 * But as we all know school isn't about learning about reality. :P --Neo 13:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Informations" is never used in the plural in American English. (Is British English different?)  I think that "information" is an uncountable noun.  So you should say "I'd like some information about your courses."  Marco polo 14:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Doh! I missed that in my commentary! --Neo 18:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, in no.3 you would not use "slender" - this is rather a complimentary word, like "slim", and is not very conversational. If you're commenting on someone looking like they might be ill, the word to use would be "thin". --Richardrj talkemail 14:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Is "Have you got" correct even? I thought it'd be "Have you gotten" or "Do you have". --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Do you have" and "Have you got" mean the same; "have you gotten" means something else - and fits better with the second sentence in the example. Rmhermen 01:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Gotten' is considered archaic in British English, and I think in general people would use 'got'. I suppose it would depend on the circumstances - if the questioner is enquiring as to whether the person has any money on them ("Do you have") or as to whether they have obtained money ("Have you obtained"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NeilTarrant (talk • contribs) 09:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC).


 * What in fact is the difference between "got" and "gotten"? JackofOz 01:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Got" would be like "to possess, to have" while "gotten" would imply "to obtain, retrieve". At least that's how I read it. Rmhermen 05:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In American English, "Have you got any money?" means "Do you have any money?" while "Have you gotten any money?" means "Have you received any money?". —Angr 11:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How interesting. "Have gotten" is past tense in both form and meaning, but "have got" uses a past tense form for a present tense meaning.  I can't think of any other example of such a construction.  JackofOz 02:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are examples from the history of other languages. In Proto-Indo-European, "I know" was something like *woide, which in form is literally "I have seen". In non-standard varieties of American English, the "have" is often omitted from "have got", resulting in "I got", "you got" and for some people even "he gots", showing that it's been completely reinterpreted as a regular present tense verb. —Angr 08:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

To me, the sentences would be: 1. "I´d like some information about your courses." "Certainly, here`s our brochure."

2. "Have you got any money?" "Yes, I went to the bank yesturday"

3. "Is John ill? He`s lost a lot of weight." "Yes, he has been rather slim these days, hasn`t he?"

4. "Why didn`t you answer the telephone?" "Because I was having a bath."

CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 10:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

German
how would one say "In the 1950's the economy of west Germany bommed". Ken 12:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't. Bommed is not a correct English word. - Mgm|(talk) 12:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

For "boomed" please use the german word "bommt" Ken 13:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And if the economy bummed? (Maybe that was far-fetched?) 惑乱 分からん 13:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (...or bombed...) 惑乱 分からん 15:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry the german word I ment to use was "blüht". What im trying to say is that "In the 1950's the West-German economy grew very quickly). In Ireland the word we use for the Economy growing very quickly is "boomed". So "the economy bommed" measns "the economy grew very quickly". I was thought that the german for bommed was blüht.Ken 13:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, in this very context the word boom is used in German as well. In den 1950er Jahren boomte die Wirtschaft Westdeutschlands or &hellip; erlebte die westdeutsche Wirtschaft einen Boom. If you want to avoid this, you may say erlebte Westdeutschland eine wirtschaftliche Blüte[zeit], but that is somewhat flowery.--80.136.162.146 13:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ken. What the economy of West Germany did during the Wirtschaftswunder was boom, rather than merely "blossom" or "flourish" (which is what blühen suggests). —Angr 14:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd vote for 80.136.162.146's first suggestion: In den 1950er Jahren boomte die Wirtschaft Westdeutschlands. The noun Wirtschaftsboom (economic boom), for instance, is commonly used in the media. Some people, however, dislike German verbs borrowed from English, because they find the corresponding conjugations to be ugly (boomte, geboomt, boomender etc.). For those purists you could also paraphrase it with In den 1950er Jahren erlebte die Wirtschaft Westdeutschlands einen Aufschwung. ---Sluzzelin 17:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Jondo
Is "jondo" an Andalusian word? I am of Spanish Basque descent, born in the United States some 400 years after my first Basque ancestor arrived here. In the culture in which I grew up we did not say "hondo" (with the silent h); we said "jondo," but I never saw the word spelled that way until I encountered the works of Federico Garcia Lorca. "Cante" confuses me too; is it a variation of "canto"?

Thank you for your help.

M. Butler


 * "Cante" means the same as "canto", but I don't think it's specific to Andalusia. "Jondo" is definitely the Andalusian form of "hondo", as used in the phrase cante jondo. How did you spell "jondo" when you were growing up? Bhumiya (said/done) 02:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Baudelaire
Alors, ô ma beauté! dites à la vermine Qui vous mangera de baisers, Que j'ai gardé la forme et l'essence divine De mes amours décomposés! (From http://fleursdumal.org/poem/126)

I know there are several translations available, but I want to ask someone fluent in French what the tone of the final line seems to be to them. My idea is that that his love is decomposing now, that it is a poem to a former lover, and he is comparing the decomposition of the corpse to the decomposition of the love. Does this fit with the poem? 64.198.112.210 17:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a bit strange, but that is what you get with poetry. Apparently, in these lines the context is that the body of a woman he loves is decomposing, and will be consumed by worms. While the body of his love is decomposing, he nevertheless proclaims victory over death because he has preserved the form and essence of the selfsame love (in his poetry or whatever). At least, that is how I read it. --Lambiam Talk  20:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought that, but then the alternate interpertation was drawn to my attention. I think I'll just include both in my speech.  Thanks.  64.198.112.210 16:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)