Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 January 22

= January 22 =

Kai Lung
In what dialect of Chinese would Kai Lung be a real name? Not Mandarin, I assume; typing lung in an IME doesn't work. Would it be Cantonese or Taiwanese? (I know that Kai Lung is a real name, because a Google Image search turns up pictures of real people as well as book covers.)

Also, how would this name be written in Chinese characters, and what would it mean?--Siva 01:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I googled it myself and got a large number of references to Kai Lung, the book, plus a website of a doctor in Singapore. It sounds Cantonese to me, but it also be Mandarin. Unfortunately, if you don't have the tones for it, nobody could really supply the characters, and even with the tones, it would be difficult, as Chinese has numerous characters with the exact same pronunciation and practically all of them can be used as given names. Just a quick guess would give me 海龍 which means 'Sea Dragon'. Also, 'lung' would be spelt 'long' in Mandarin Pinyin, but with the same pronunciation. CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 02:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Does the website of the Singaporean doctor give his name in Chinese characters? That might give an idea as to an "authentic" rendering of the name. The 'Sea Dragon' interpretation makes sense, though, although it's not clear why Ernest Bramah would have chosen that name in particular.--Siva 03:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But in Mandarin, 海龍 would be "Hai Long", not "Kai Long"; see 海. Kai Lung could be 凱龍 (simplified 凯龙) kǎi lóng "triumphant dragon". —Angr 18:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

But it would be pronounced 'Kai Lung' in Cantonese. CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 09:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think so... according to 海 and 凱, both of those characters are hoi in Cantonese. —Angr 10:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The name wasn't in Mandarin. 惑乱 分からん 19:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What makes you think it wasn't?--Siva 20:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The article claimed so. 惑乱 分からん 21:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I created that article, so that doesn't count : ). Seeing that the name could be Mandarin, I will change the article accordingly.--Siva 22:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To me, a name like "Kai Lung" is probably as legitimate a name as Shang Chi, Fah Lo Suee (a minor character in the Shang Chi series), Fu Manchu.  In other words, they weren't created with real Chinese in mind.  (Yes, I know Jackie Chan's (or for that matter, Bruce Lee) name is similar.  They don't actually use their stage names in English, so my point stands.)  ColourBurst 21:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's quite possible, as the Kai Lung series is after all a parody of classical Chinese culture as Europeans saw it, and makes no pretension to historical or linguistic accuracy. However, the fact that names like Kai Lung do exist in Chinese makes me wonder whether Bramah conjured up these names from thin air, or whether he actually knew enough Chinese to make plausible-sounding names.--Siva 22:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's possible that the variations above could fit, however I caution against actually putting it into the article as that would be original research. If you can find a published source that has actually talked about the actual character's name (I don't imagine that the Chinese are big on studying Bramah in particular, and I haven't seen any Chinese studies professors not in China discuss him either.) then okay, but anything else is just speculation.  ColourBurst 23:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Try to search 啟龍 on google, and you get some "real people" with this name (in Cantonese).--K.C. Tang 03:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of fashion designers and brand names
I find it difficult to correctly pronounce the names of fashion designers and brand names, such as Pierre Cardin, Louis Vuitton, Salvatore Ferragamo, Givenchy, Dolce & Gabbana, and others. Is there a source in Wikipedia or anywhere else on the net for this? Greatly appreciate someone's help in this regard. Irfanm12 10:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Cardin, Vuitton and Givenchy are French names, and I think Ferragamo and D&G Italian. Look at the articles for ortography/pronunciation. 惑乱 分からん 14:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt it. But, you'll be able to pass at it if you do the first few lessons of any cheap French or Italian course on tape - just enough to know how to sound words out.  pyair kard-ANN, looie vwee-TAWN, sal-va-TOR-ay fair-a-GAHM-oh, zhee-vawn-SHEE (zh = the "s" in pleasure), DOL-chay ay gahb-AHN-ah. --Diderot 14:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

mandarin dark/light L
Hi. Does anyone know if /l/ in Mandarin is dark or light? I.e. l as in English 'leaf' or 'feel'.

thanks

Duomillia 16:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In general, initial consonants in Mandarin are unvoiced, the northern [r] being the exception. In practice, there is some variation, since initial voicing is not generally considered phonological and it may in fact be voiced by some speakers in some contexts sometimes.  So, initial [l] is generally unvoiced.  I think that's "dark" in your terminology, but I voice [l] in both words, so I'm not sure. --Diderot 17:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Actually, by dark and light I am refering to tongue position. Velarized alveolar lateral approximant is velarized, so the tongue is "pulled backwards a bit" and the non-velarized l is with the tongue 'forward' a bit, (I hope the linguists will forgive me for phrasing that not quite perfectly right :)Duomillia 17:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The IPA symbol given in the phonology section of Standard Mandarin indicates an unvelarized, or light alveolar lateral approximant. It is of course possible that this phoneme is velarized in nonstandard dialects.  Marco polo 18:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But that article is just giving phonemes. The Standard Mandarin lateral could still be subphonemically velarized and it's just not shown as such in the table. —Angr 18:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyone know for sure? Any native speakers who have studied phonology??? Maybe??? I hope... Duomillia 18:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In case a native speaker does not come along, I have in fact studied Mandarin. In Mandarin, the phoneme /l/ occurs only initially in syllables and can be followed only by a vowel. I am fairly certain that it is not velarized in standard Mandarin, regardless of the preceding syllable or the subsequent vowel.  Marco polo 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a hard time hearing a velarized /l/ in Mandarin in my head too. But, I know some Mandarin speakers pronounce initial /r/ as an /l/, and I think that's a velarized /l/ in some dialects, but I won't swear by it.  It's for sure not standard 普通话. --Diderot 21:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I had to look at several linguist articles to figure this one out. The Mandarin dialect I speak vocalizes the L as alveolar lateral approximant, if I have the linguist terms correct. As in, it's more like pronouncing 'leaf'. But in plain English terms, so linguist can confirm, is that the tounge's tip touches a bit of the upper part of my front teeth and the gum (is that even called the gum at the back of the teeth?). --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking further, guess it's not called the 'gum', but the "alveolar ridge", which corresponds to the alveolar lateral approximant. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by light or dark. But I did check a handbook of Putonghua Standard Test (Putonghua Shuiping Ceshi Shishi Gangyao; ISBN 7-100-04175-9/H.1035). In the phonology section, it is said that l is the [l] (Alveolar lateral approximant). I found no other "alternatives" for this sound, unlike r which has at least two, one being a Voiced retroflex fricative. I'm a southerner and tend not to use this version r.--Fitzwilliam 10:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's how you can tell. Make a recording of the /l/ by a native speaker before a central vowel such as /a/ in a .wav file. Then post it here. I'll try and analyze it and tell you just how fronted or backed it is. Or if you wanna do it yourself, analyze it with Praat. Look at the spectrogram, which will hopefully be in the bottom half window. Click in the middle of the /l/ sound. Be careful, to get the /l/  by listening and sight  because the second highest dark band will be lighter in shade than the vowel. Finally, go to "get formant values" and see if the second formant is above say 1200. If it is, the /l/ is pretty clear (i.e., light). Hey, it's easier than putting together an Ikea desk!mnewmanqc 02:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"des post."
I was reading the position wanted classified ads in an American newspaper yesterday and I saw a term I don't understand. At least three of the ads said something along these lines, "Carpenter des post. Have own tools". What does the des post. mean? A Google search wasn't helpful. ike9898 17:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * All I can think of is "desires post", as in "is looking for a job". —Angr 17:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Either that, or "desires position". ---Sluzzelin 18:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Or perhaps "does posts", meaning they install wooden fence posts ? StuRat 21:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

alphbetical order
I am curious to know in which alphabetical order you would put the words "sisters" and "sister's" ? Which word would be listed first or does it matter? Thanks. Joyce :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.229.224.247 (talk) 18:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Marco polo 18:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * However, according to the Chicago Manual of Style, I would have been wrong, because under its rules, which are widely accepted in the United States, apostrophes are ignored, so "sisters" would be treated exactly the same as "sister's" and the order would depend on the subsequent words. Marco polo 18:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)