Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 January 23

= January 23 =

Japanese song question / Background
Can someone please tell me what these people are singing, and if possible, the background on these videos

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Thanks Omnipotence407 01:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The song's lyrics are "Pitagora Suittchi", which also appear to be the title of the segment, which I guess is engrish or Japanese for "Pythagoras Switch". That's also the text on the boxes in the end of each scene. One funny thing is that in one scene, the machine isn't working out exactly as planned and the "chi" box doesn't get properly closed, so there's some doubt in the end of the song, like "Pitagora Sui.. tchi(?)". The scenes seem cut from some TV show at NHK, since the song's often cut in the beginning and the end. 惑乱 分からん 02:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoops, I see now it was a longer song between approx 4.14-5.30 in the longer video. Seems to be a humorous/ironic account of what's happening in the machine... My Japanese is very basic, so I'm in no way capable of translating it... 惑乱 分からん 02:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Aaahh, amazing. Wikipedia has an article: PythagoraSwitch, you can also see the official Japanese homepage here. 惑乱 分からん 02:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I didn't know the program. A song is indeed a humorous account of what's happening in the machine, such as "... here comes a hammer, now a gear rotates, a marble (named bii-suke ビー助 after bii-dama (ja:ビー玉, marble in Japanese)) pops up ..." and so on. According to the ja.wp article, there even exists a DVD for the macines (amazon.co.jp) although its region code is 2. --marsian 15:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * They are the series of clips taken from a popular educational program for kids in Japan. They are singing "Pitagora Switch (ピタゴラ　スイッチ)". The word "Pitagora" is apparently derived from the English word "Pythagorean".--Kohyin 01:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"abreaction" - meaning and derivation
I am trying to sort out a debate between various schools of psychotherapy over the meaning and derivation of the word "abreaction". Where I have been able to find it in English dictionaries it seems to be defined as synonomous with "catharsis", i.e. an emotional purging of a previously forgotten or repressed event. I would appreciate any light that can be shed into this dark corner. -- GrahameKing 02:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding its meaning, there's a short article on abreaction. It looks like it might have been coined by Jung, and in everyday German the verb sich abreagieren means something like to vent one's emotions (verbally, or by means of aggressive physical exhaustion, for instance). The prefix ab- can signify down or away. The noun Abreaktion is not commonly used outside the psychoanalytical lingo. ---Sluzzelin 02:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, isn't the ab- actually lit. "off-", the German cognate to Latin ab- originally? Swedish has "sich abreagieren" calqued as "avreagera sig", by the way. I don't know the Swedish translation of abreaktion, though I suspekt it's "avreaktion". 惑乱 分からん 03:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thankyou both for that. So am I correct in understanding that the word in English as in the German is signifying primarily emotional release rather than any intellectual insight into the emotions? --GrahameKing 04:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, to both of you. ---Sluzzelin 04:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. -- GrahameKing 04:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Gender of 'theatre' in French
I'm totally ignorant of French, so please forgive the naive question - but can someone please tell me the gender of the word 'theatre' in Fr?

Thanks.

Adambrowne666 04:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

PS - is there a linguistic term for this? - is there a term for the process of attributing gender to inanimate things?


 * it's masculine, of course you can get a quicker answer by checking an on-line dictionary... as to the other question, first it's not a problem of animate or inanimate things. In some cases, an animate thing's gender is also "attributed" to it, as gender in language is not exactly the same thing as biological gender. See Grammatical vs. natural gender. The word you need may be gender assignment. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 05:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Great answer, thanks Adambrowne666 06:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

-- Sorry, one more thing. Are there any languages that attribute the masculine gender to the word 'theatre'? Adambrowne666 07:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm... French. Teatro is masculine in Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, too. —Angr 07:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict: first, what you mean by "the word theatre"? you mean words that have the more or less the same spelling (i.e. the same root)? if you mean that, you may want to know that "theatre" (spelled teatro) in both Italian and Spanish are also masculine. If you mean the idea of "theatre", then you mean "theatre" in the sense of "theatre house" or that in the sense of "dramatic art"? These two things are not necessarily the same word in other languages.--K.C. Tang 07:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As a side note, that brings to mind Mark Twain's observation, "In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has." Clarityfiend 17:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agh - I'm an idiot! I meant, are there any languages that attribute the FEMALE gender to 'theatre'? - and yes, thanks, KC, I do mean playhouse. Adambrowne666 22:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the German word Theater is neutre, just like Mark Twain's young ladies. But one commonly used metonym for theatre (in the sense of playhouse) is Bühne, meaning stage, Berlin, for instance, has two famous theatres named Volksbühne (people's stage) and Schaubühne (show stage). (Die) Bühne is female feminine. I suspect there are similar synonyms of female feminine gender in other languages too, but I'll leave that up to the native speakers. ---Sluzzelin 22:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I did think of one example in French: La comédie, as in the legendary Parisian playhouse Comédie-Française. (But something tells me you already know this and, in fact, this might be were you're coming from :) ? )---Sluzzelin 23:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Sluzzelin, for yet another helpful answer - and thanks too, for assuming I know stuff ... actually, these questions are coming from a brain gravely fried by 7 or 8 hours of writing - it lowers my IQ by an appreciable amount - so really, you should just take them at face value... :) Adambrowne666 07:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be picky about something: grammatical genders are "masculine" and "feminine" (and "neuter"), not "male" and "female". Mädchen "girl", Fräulein "young lady", and Weib "woman (archaic or derogatory)" are all neuter nouns in German but refer to female persons. Cailín "girl" in Irish is masculine gender but refers to a female person, while gasóg "boy scout" is feminine gender but refers to a male person. Bühne and comédie are feminine but not female. —Angr 04:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course, grr, thanks, Angr, corrected. (As you might have guessed, my confusion stems from the fact that German uses the same word for feminine and female.) ---Sluzzelin 05:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Another example: patrie (as in Allons, enfants de la patrie) meaning "fatherland" is a feminine noun. JackofOz 05:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, all, very interesting and helpful. Adambrowne666 22:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Theatr" in Welsh is feminine. -- Arwel (talk) 00:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Languages
Why do all languages have their own unique sound? What do we subconsciously listen for to distinguish German from French for instance? Thanks! S.dedalus 07:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do we subconsciously learn to distinguish Cockney and Scouse, or Alabama from New York? It's all geographical. In your particular example, it can be said that the Rhine River separated the people, and gave rise to less interraction between the peoples situated there. In Switzerland and Luxembourg, however, people speak a mix of both languages. Just because you are the same nationality as someone else, but from a different area, it doesn't mean you drink the same beer. CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 10:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think S.dedalus was asking about which sounds we listen for when trying to recognize a language we do not understand. Analytically speaking, the articles on phonology and prosody might offer some insight. Then there are people with a great ear for this, who can convincingly imitate foreign languages while speaking complete gobbledygook - it's much easier to do when you don't actually speak the imitated language at all. Two famous examples of German gibberish are Charlie Chaplin's speech in The Great Dictator and Monty Python's The Funniest Joke in the World. I think these comical titans can also be helpful in understanding what we listen for, in that they attempted to deliver a caricature of the language (designed for an English speaking audience, but hilarious to German speaking audiences too). This is happening on a more synthesized level, beyond phones and phonemes, using typical combinations of syllables and endings, as well as speech melody, and occasionally throwing in one of the few give-away words we do recognize (Ja, e.g.).  ---Sluzzelin 01:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Are there any examples of pseudo-English gibberish of this type? --Lph 21:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The only "famous" one I could think of (apart from local comedians I've seen doing it on television or in shows) is Adriano Celentano. For instance, his 1970s song Prisencolinensinainciusol (Pronounced something like: Prees'n' coal 'n' ansy nine chew zole), containing unforgettable lines such as:
 * "Uel ai sint no ai giv de sint (Well, I sint no I give da sint)
 * Laik de cius nobodi oh gud taim lev feis go" (Like da choose nobody oh good time lev phase go)
 * ... which should be pronounced with a twangy overdone american accent, but has to be read using Italian phonetical rules most of the time. If you google the title (Prisencolinensinainciusol), you'll find numerous renditions, the first hit is a clip on youtube (if you don't understand Italian and get tired of all the talking, the song starts somewhere around 1'40'') ---Sluzzelin 00:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Sluzzelin, that was really cool! --Lph 13:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Vowels
I searched on wikicommons and found a lot of pictures showing vowel "quadrilaterals" for different languages like American English, Dutch and Cantonese, etc. Many came from a Linguistics book (something like Handbook of IPA).

My question is: why are the positions of those vowels on the pictures differ so significantly from where they are on the IPA vowel chart? I tried to pronounce vowels of my native Cantonese and still got no clues.--Fitzwilliam 08:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The cardinal vowels of the IPA are ideals. The cardinal vowel /i/, for example, is a maximally close, maximally front vowel. In real languages, vowels almost never reach these "ideal" positions. Rather, any given language's /i/ sound is simply the closest, frontest vowel that language has, which in an absolute sense may not be particularly close or front. —Angr 10:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So, the charts I found at commons:Category:Phonology "approximate" the positions a language's vowels? Or, in one language, all the vowels are drawn on a chart based on their relative "distance"?--Fitzwilliam 13:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Usually on a vowel chart like the ones in that category, the points show the positions relative to the ideal cardinal vowels. Thus in the California English vowel chart, the /u/ is considerably further forward, and slightly lower, than cardinal /u/. —Angr 14:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

word translation
in my other computer when i located the cursor in top of a word it auto translate the word from english to spanish ./ can you please guide me on how to re-track this option. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alejandro Orrego (talk • contribs) 14:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Seems to be some particular software installed? 惑乱 分からん 15:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you need to install the appropriate software. You might get more help on the computing desk. And it might help if you explain whether you are referring to web pages, or your word processor, or what.--Shantavira 16:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I need a phonetic transliteration from Classical Hebrew to English
[This is NOT a comment. I need a question answered and have ended up here 3 times when I clicked "How to Ask a Question" to the Reference Desk!! I need a phonetic transliteration from Classical/Biblical/Sephardic Hebrew to English for the following phrase: מסדרון של הסלע. If there's a more ancient form of Hebrew, I'd like that too. I'd also like to know how this would be pronounced and spelled in modern (American) English in Ashkenazi Hebrew, as well.

Thanx vm for your prompt attention and valuable consideration of this request.

1/23/07 Dr. J in PIDr. J in PI 17:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It probably means "Corridor of stone", but it's not Biblical Hebrew -- shel של does not occur as a separate word meaning "of" in Biblical Hebrew, and מסדרון misderon is a hapax legomenon of somewhat uncertain meaning in the Bible. The modern Israeli pronunciation would be misderon shel hasela, close enough, or misderon shel hasela` if you wanted the old Mizrachi-influenced pronunciation with pharyngeal `Ayin.  I could attempt to give a transcription of a pseudo-Tiberian pronunciation of this phrase, except that my browser software doesn't really handle all the necessary Unicode symbols correctly... AnonMoos 19:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm by no means a native Hebrew speaker, but this term comes across with a peculiar ring in Ivrit. The definite article "ha" before the word "sela" makes me think a more accurate translation would be "Corridor of the stone". It's an odd usage for Ivrit... to the extent that I think it's referring to a specific rock. Perhaps THE rock! It could be, therefore, that the term refers to a notable corridor... or possibly tunnel on, under or around Temple Mount. If I were to wildly speculate, I'd go with it being the name for one of the site's many tunnels, possibly the notorious one that Ariel Sharon visited just before the latest Intifada. The poster has given no context and has only asked for a transliteration, not translation, but nonetheless, I'm intrigued. --Dweller 10:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The Dome of the Rock in Ivrit is rendered "kipat hasela". Which now makes me really question the peculiar usage of "shel", if this is what the misderon is referring to. --Dweller 13:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

what kind?
What kinds of languages that are used in e-mail and how many "real world" languages (English, Spanish etc.) are used in e-mail? I recentlly asked the computer reference desk and they recommend me to ask to this language desk. Thank you!-- PrestonH  | talk  |  contribs  |  editor review  | 22:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * E-mails are private correspondence protected by law, there is no way to know that. Mieciu K 22:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Virtually any language that is spoken and written is used in e-mail. Take a look at the languages in which there is a version of Wikipedia, listed on the Wikipedia home page.  Perhaps apart from the ancient languages, every one of them is at least sometimes used for email.  Some other less widely spoken languages (languages without a Wikipedia version) are at least occasionally used for e-mail.  Marco polo 23:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Marco Polo's approach sounds reasonable. E-mails are used by people with access to the internet, and they will communicate in their preferred language as long as the other person understands it and as long as communication is possible by means of some kind of writing system. Any given population with access to the internet will have a certain percentage of people (actually one person is all it takes) mad enough to start a Wikipedia in their native language. For instance, there are Wikipedias in numerous European minority languages, some of them almost exclusively spoken with very little writing tradition before the arrival of e-mail and sms. At the same time, hundreds of Papuan languages currently have no Wikipedia of their own, nor do any e-mails get sent in these languages. So, with 250 languages represented at Wikipedia you have a solid minimum (ok, minus the couple of ancient languages, but I bet there are people who send e-mails in Latin). Even after throwing in Wikipedia's Western cultural bias, I don't think the current exact but unverifiable answer to your question is more than 1000. This is all speculation, of course, and I could be dead wrong. ---Sluzzelin 23:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No reason to exclude the ancient languages (quick example). I'm sure plenty of email is sent in your constructed, fictional, etc., languages too.  Wareh 02:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * HAHA! I didn't think of that when I answered this on the Computer desk but you are right! I bet someone has written an email in klingon! ha. Vespine 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's Klingon Language, not Klingon. FruitMart07 21:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think "Thlingan hol" could be referred to as klingon when it's clear it's the language that's meant. It's a wrong wikilink, though... 惑乱 分からん 23:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)