Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 July 12

=July 12=

Television set etymology
What is the reason that the TV receiver is sometimes called a "television set" or "TV set"? Our TV article  also sometimes refers to the receiver as a "television or TV set". Wiktionary shows this usage but provides no etymology. I've no recollection of a radio receiver being called a "radio set" so how do you suppose that that (Ooh, I love "that that") usage for TV came about? ~ hydnjo talk 01:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have heard of radio sets. I think the usage of set for a television or a radio is in its sense of "a complete assemblage or apparatus". Early radios and televisions were sometimes sold in kit-form, or one could buy a "sound-only" television receiver, so a set would be the complete works. DuncanHill 01:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, something like a "chess set" which would include the board along with the pieces? ~ hydnjo talk 01:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. DuncanHill 01:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you never heard of a Crystal set Hydnjo?--Tugjob 02:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, now that you call it to my attention I have indeed! I'd forgotten entirely about that and so it seems that memory may in fact be the first to go :-(  ~ hydnjo talk 03:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Or other things that you once had have already gone, but you've forgotten you had them... Tesseran 04:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Quite possible but then, should we even care? ~ hydnjo talk 05:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Numbers
I learned that numbers less than or equal to ten are indicated by words (one, two, three, etc.) and that numbers greater than ten are indicated by numerals (238, 239, 240, etc.). Assuming that is correct, what is the proper format when a sentence combines numbers less than ten with numbers greater than ten? Example A: The judge gave John Smith a sentence of five to 15 years in prison. Example B: I expect anywhere from seven to 12 people at the reception tomorrow. In these instances, do you indicate both values in words, both values in numerals, or mix words with numerals? Also, what happens when hyphens are used, as in: In eight-12 years, we plan to retire. OR: He was given eight-12 years in prison. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 02:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC))


 * I have no idea about that, but I learned that there are different standards for which numbers you spell out and the ones that you use numerals for. I have heard the following: I learned that different people/groups have different standards for this.  Three of which (the following three have absolutely nothing to do with each other, they are three different "rules") are:
 * Spell out numbers <= 10
 * and Spell out numbers <= 20
 * I vaguely remember hearing something about anything <= 5, but that could just be a memory lapse.
 * I hope that that makes more sense; if it doesn't, just pretend like I never wrote anything.
 * --Falconus 02:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Falconus, your rule above does not make sense. Is there a typo in there, somewhere?  Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 06:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Sorry for not being clear, but I was making the point that there didn't seem to be a set rule. I see now that it looks like I gave three parameters for one rule, which doesn't make a lot of sense.  I definitely didn't mean to do that.  Sorry for the confusion. --Falconus 14:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no absolute rule for this. Different companies, newspapers etc have their own style guides, containing overlapping but different rules.  Be consistent in the same context, and refer to the most relevant style guide for the rules in these sorts of cases.  If the particular guide doesn't address the issue, I'd treat each separate number according to the rules in the guide.  --  JackofOz 03:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * For Wikipedia, the relevant style guide is Manual of Style (dates and numbers). In contexts such as the original poster's example A, it says that both "5 to 15" and "five to fifteen" are acceptable.  But as Jack says, this is something where style guides will differ.  The original poster also asked about hyphenated style, like "5-15".  That's never used with numbers written as words.  By the way, if the en dash character is available, it is often preferred to the hyphen.  --Anonymous, July 12, 09:56 (UTC), missing "if" added 23:23.


 * I am more familiar with the style in which the first of a sequence of numbers is spelt out, and subsequent numbers are writen in numerals. eg "Children are tested at seven, 11, and 13" DuncanHill 14:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus "The winning numbers were three hundred ninety-eight, 53, 8, 412, and 201" ? Tesseran 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but seeing that has reminded me that lottery numbers always seem to be written in numerals (maybe because they have no meaning other than as conventional signs). To return to the prison example at top, "The judge sentenced her to serve seven to 9 years". DuncanHill 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Usually when you see something like "seven, 11, and 13", it's because the numbers are in ascending order and someone has strictly applied a rule like "spell out numbers up to 10". I've never heard it suggested that the first number in such a series should be treated differently just because it is first. --Anonymous, July 12, 23:23 (UTC).


 * Well, consistency within a document is more important than attending to some arbitrary rule, but the guideline I've used is: spell it out if it's a single word (eleven, twenty, three) and use numerals if it's more (44, 95), but only use one style if you're making a list (11, 20, 3, 44, 95... not eleven, twenty, three, 44, 95). Most importantly, I ignore that guideline if it makes sense to do so. For example, if I'm dealing with serial numbers and quantities of them and I need to do it in a proper sentence, then I'd use "I need twenty-four 280653s", not "I need 24 280653s." Matt Deres 13:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not entirely relevant to the question, but: I prefer to use digits only when all the digits shown are significant. &mdash;Tamfang 19:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Tamfang -- what does that mean? Can you offer a few examples?  Thanks.  (JosephASpadaro 19:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Examples and an explanation are provided in the significant figures article Tamfang linked. &mdash; Reverend Ted 22:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I know what a significant digit is. I am asking for clarification (i.e., an example or two) of how that concept relates to the topic at hand (i.e., spelling out a number in words versus using numerals).


 * For example, I write "two hundred" rather than "200" unless I know that the actual number is definitely between 195 and 205; my point is that even a zero says something, and ought not to be used as a wildcard, whereas with words the extra digits are omitted rather than (misleadingly) specified. I write (and say) "half" rather than "50%" unless the population (if it's a count noun) is at least 100 and the actual fraction is between 49% and 51%.  &mdash;Tamfang 04:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

trying to remember a term
What's the word for a falsehood deliberately planted in a text to catch out plagiarists?

While we're at it, what's the word for the sensation of having a word on the tip of your tongue?

Adambrowne666 03:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * First one is fictitious entry, Mountweazel, or Nihilartikel. —Keenan Pepper 03:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See also the canary trap. --Anon, July 12, 2007, 23:25 (UTC).


 * Oh, and more relevant, copyright trap. --Anon, July 13, 07:25 (UTC).


 * For the second, I'm not aware there is a term for this; which makes sense because "it's on the tip of my tongue" is already a standard English expression (it is not afaik reflected in other languages) that substitutes for a longer and more physiologically accurate expression such as "I can almost remember this, but not quite". --  JackofOz 04:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There's tip of the tongue (TOT) phenomenon (ok, so that's not one word - so sue me). Clarityfiend 04:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI it exists, in the exact same meanings, at least in Serbo-Croatian (na vrhu jezika). I can check for other Slavic languages if you wish. Duja ► 11:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC) I should learn to read the remainder before jumping in. Duja ► 11:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, all, great stuff.Adambrowne666 04:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, 45 other languages have a similar expression. Great info, Clarityfiend.  (When I was writing my previous reply, I was almost going to say "I heard this word once; it's on the tip of my tongue but I can't quite remember it" - but thought that was too obvious a joke even for me).  --  JackofOz 04:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In a typical example of a technical word being debased for a vaguely comic use I have heard lethologica used to describe tip of the toungishness. Aphasia and logamnesia may also be used and if the tip of your tongue really begins to burn it may be described as loganamnosis.  meltBanana  19:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

'salvame salvame salvation dn tando prinsipe
what is the translation of 'salvame salvame salvation dn tando prinsipe?


 * It says that you can only be saved from a visitation by ghosts if you pass on the message this is part of to 12 other people. --Lambiam Talk  07:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Mistake in Wikipedia logo
why dont you correct your mistake about the letter written in sanskrit as a reference to WIKI in your logo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.7.112.77 (talk • contribs)


 * Who are you asking? Sanskrit is not a script but a language, and many Indian scripts are used for writing Sanskrit text, several of which are represented on the logo. Presumably you mean the Devanagari (non-)character, which indeed does not make sense. I'm not sure which was the intended syllable (move hook to the left, or flip it over?); also, the computer I'm on now doesn't have the fonts. I'm not an expert, but the Chinese character and the Japanese katakana digram also look wrong: one has an extra little stroke the other is missing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more problems I don't see – I'm not an expert on these scripts. I'd think there are image editors that would allow one to fix the image, but am not sure how difficult that is. --Lambiam Talk  20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This anomaly was the subject of a recent item in the Wikipedia Signpost. The fellow who designed the logo has admitted to the unintentional mistake, but says he doesn't have time to correct it.  Life moves on... Shalom Hello 22:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Specifically, this article. --JayHenry 04:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Translation for pin sylvastre
pin sylvastre it is name of an aromatic essential oil in french. May I know name of the plant/ tree in english and aso the botanical name of the plant.


 * If you mean pin sylvestre, the British name of this plant is "Scots pine", and its American name is "Scotch pine". The botanical name is "Pinus sylvestris".  Marco polo 18:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)