Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 July 18

= July 18 =

Latin translation
Can you please translate into Latin 'Only God Can Judge Me' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ijr1971 (talk • contribs)


 * Ovaltinum plus bebite!. But don't get a tattoo of that if you're under 30.  Seriously.  I don't know anyone with youthful tattoos who doesn't regret them, and a common pop-culture phrase like this -- in a language you don't speak, no less -- has "regret"  written all over it.  --TotoBaggins 15:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Let Ijr1971 (who I suspect is 35 or 36) make his own decisions. As we already discussed a few weeks ago when this question was asked about French, the translation depends on what precisely "can" means in this context. If you mean "Only God is permitted to judge me", the Latin is "Solo Deo licet me iudicare". (If you want it in all caps for your tattoo, change the u to a V: SOLO DEO LICET ME IVDICARE.)
 * Alternatively, you could use an already existing Latin motto with a similar message, such as Nemo me impune lacessit. —Angr 15:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Except for us in the UK, we have this around pound coins, not so cool... Lanfear&#39;s Bane
 * And it's rather ironic for a tattoo. --Lambiam 16:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

where can i find this place?
is grammatically incorrect, but what should it be? in a quiz, the question is shown next to a picture of the place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.121.36.232 (talk • contribs)


 * Where can this place be found? ? Zain Ebrahim 11:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not grammatically incorrect, but we don't know who "I" is. And places are not usually spoken of as "found". Why not just say "Where is this?"--Shantavira|feed me 13:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Definition of French word
The word commutative (used heavily in mathematics) has it's origins in French. The first usage as a math property was by François Servois in 1814. He said "Les fonctions qui, comme f et g, sont telles qu'elles donnent des résultats identiques, quel que soit l'ordre dans lequel on les applique au sujet, seront appelées commutatives entre elles."

My question is, did he make the word up? If it existed in French already, what was its meaning outside of math?

I'm working on the commutativity page and trying to provide history for the property, so any information would be helpful and sources would be a plus! Weston.pace 15:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Google commutative justice for a concept that has been in English since the 16th c. (Elyot's Governour), reflecting Aristotle's discussion, in his Ethics, of a kind of justice that restores and maintains the apportionment of just shares between parties involved in private transactions (compare the mathematical reference, somewhat different, to terms that may be interchanged; search the article on Ethics for "rectification in transactions" for the relevant concept). The partition of justice by Aristotle and Aquinas (who gives us the Latin term commutativa iustitia) had its influence later on Kant's Rechtslehre, and most of the Wikipedia articles (retributive justice, restorative justice, distributive justice, etc.) seem to focus on the later philosophical & legal discussions.  Wareh 17:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There was a pre-existing French word commuter, meaning "to substitute or switch". This is a borrowing into French directly from the Latin commutare.  (There is another French word, commuer, meaning "to change", that is derived from Latin commutare through Old French.)  The suffix -ative is derived from the Latin -ativus and means "tending to, or serving to...".  Very likely Servois drew on the French sense of commuter meaning "to substitute" and the existing philosophical term commutative meaning "shared".  Marco polo 17:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest that the root meaning of "exchange" is immediately felt, with different specific senses, in both the mathematical usage (terms are exchanged with one another) and the earlier use I've mentioned (concerning the exchanges and mutual dealings among people). There is at least one reference to "commutative justice" in 16th c. French, in Rabelais's Tiers Livre.   Wareh 17:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input everyone, I think that should be enough to give a history of where the word came from, I'll get around to updating the page as soon as I can get some free time. Weston.pace 17:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Cheers!
Does "cheers!" mean something other than "thanks" somewhere? I've only encountered the meaning 'thanks' before, but some people seem to sign-off with it around here after answering a question or just saying something. Are they just saying thanks for the the opportunity to type, or does it have some other meaning? Skittle 16:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Its use to mean "thanks" is British. I've never heard it used that way in the United States. On the other hand, "cheers!" is used as a drinking toast in the United States.  I suspect that that is its origin.  In effect, the drinker wishes cheer to each of his companions.  Its extension to mean "thanks" suggests that the speaker is offering a toast in thanks.  Marco polo 17:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheers is used as a drinking toast in Britain, and I think this use predates its use to mean thanks. It is also used sometimes to mean goodbye, cf cheerio which can be used to mean goodbye or as a drinking toast. DuncanHill 17:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent. I suspected something like this, but I never like to assume with language. That way lies the bulldog in Lady and the Tramp calling Tramp "a bit of alright"! So now I can relax a little, without imagining everyone is thanking people for asking questions (or being really insincere in a discussion!). Thanks guys. Skittle 18:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I use it quite a bit here, but only as a sign-off. It's a common expression in Australia, where it sometimes means "thanks", but is more often used as a toast, and even more often as a farewell.  Cheers.  --  JackofOz 23:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That's twice in a week or so that someone has cited the bulldog's outrageous gaffe, and this colonial bumpkin at least is no wiser. &mdash;Tamfang 17:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I think both times were me; I've been a bit sleep-deprived and stressed lately, so may repeat myself :P 'A bit of alright' is generally a description of someone sexually attractive, which was unlikely to be the way Disney intended the line! Skittle 22:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheerio is also rarely used in Australia for goodbye.Polypipe Wrangler

Benvolio
Hello. Is Benvolio in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet in any way related to Malvolio in Twelfth Night other than they both share the same -volio suffix? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 17:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The names mean "good will" and "ill will" respectively. It has certainly been claimed that Malvolio was named "on analogy with, and in contrast to" Shakespeare's earlier character.  It has also been pointed out that such names echo the conventions of morality plays (second result here). Wareh 17:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Reminds me of my state's least favorite pseudonym, or at least the construction of it. 68.39.174.238 01:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

language of Jesus?
What name would Jesus have used to call himself in everyday conversation with friends, in his own language. How would it have been pronounced? Something like [jesu] or did he use a name like Christ?--Sonjaaa 18:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua). (See the beginning of the Jesus article).  Corvus cornix 18:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that he lived in Palestine, rather than Babylon, wouldn't he have spoken Hebrew, rather than Aramaic? As an intelligent person living in an occupied country, I guess there's a reasonable chance he'd have had a smattering of Latin too, but that's just speculation. Romani ite domum --Dweller 18:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Contrary to the Mel, Latin wasn't widely spoken in most of the Eastern Roman Empire. It is almost certain that Jesus spoke Aramaic (1st-century Galilean Aramaic to be precise) rather than Hebrew as his first language. Evidence for Hebrew use is mostly focused on Jerusalem and seems not to have been all that widespread (although some do read the evidence differently). However, Jesus' name is the Hebrew name ישוע, a varient of יהושע. Its pronunciation would be more like . Christ comes from the Greek Χριστος, which is a calque of the Aramaic/Hebrew משיח, meaning 'anointed'. Jesus probably would have known enough Greek to get by. — Gareth Hughes 19:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And he certainly would have known Hebrew quite well, despite its not being his native language, since it was the liturgical language of Judaism then as now. —Angr 19:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Latin translation please
Could I please get a translation of this: Frigida Francifci tegit hic lapis offa Petrarcae

Sufcipe, Virgo parens, animam: fate Virgine parce;

Feffaque jam terris coeli requiefcat in arce. Thanks, --Doug talk 19:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You can find a published translation of these oddly-rhyming lines here (from which you can also correct the text which you've mistranscribed; see long s). The translation is pretty literal but omits "cold bones" and "in the citadel of heaven."  Wareh 19:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The Petrarch Gallery translates it thus:
 * This stone covers the cold remains of Francesco Petrarca.
 * Embrace, oh Virgin Mother, his soul, and you who are born of the Virgin forgive it,
 * and already tired of the earth, may it rest in the high heavens.
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.112.135.118 (talk • contribs)

(Edit conflict) I think you've been looking at a Renaissance document that uses the long s. You want: Frigida Francisci tegit hic lapis ossa Petrarcae

Suscipe, Virgo parens, animam: sate Virgine parce;

Fessaque jam terris coeli requiescat in arce. According to http://www.eapoe.org/WorkS/misc/pnkdia.htm, this is Francescuolo da Brossano's inscription on Petrarch's tomb. My rough-and-ready translation is: This stone covers the cold bones of Francesco Petrarch

Virgin Mother, receive his soul: You Who were born to the Virgin, spare it;

And let it, which was worn out by the world, now rest in the citadel of heaven. And there's nothing odd about the rhyme if you use the Italianate pronunciation of Latin: all three lines end in the sequence. —Angr 20:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What I thought was slightly odd was precisely the fact that these classicizing hexameters rhyme (perfectly). That's something I usually associate with very unclassical, stress-based medieval forms of poetry (or Leonine verse).  I don't know enough to suggest that there's anything objectively weird about the style of rhyming, though.  Wareh 20:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In other words, what's odd (considering when it was written) is the rhythm, not the rhyme! :p BTW, the Google Books link you provided is apparently another instance of one that can't viewed from outside the U.S. I can't see the quote on that page, anyhow. —Angr 20:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I would have expected classicizing verse with no rhyme, given the return to antiquity professed by the humanists. Wareh 20:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the translations. The scanned in version I was going from was very blurry.--Doug talk 20:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

American Manual Alphabet
Why is it that in the American Manual Alphabet the sign for R, a very common letter, is rather difficult to make (for me anyway) and looks somewhat like the letter X, while the sign for X, an uncommon letter, is easy to make and looks somewhat like a lower-case R? —Bkell (talk) 21:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)