Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 July 21

= July 21 =

Two Japanese characters
I wanted to know what does the red neon sign say in this pic. Copy-pasteable transcript would be cool too. (It's most likely Japanese) 354d 00:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you pulling our leg? The pic looks solid black from where I'm sitting. &mdash;Tamfang 07:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It reminded me of this painting. ---Sluzzelin talk  07:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it says "it's nighttime and this sign is turned off". —Steve Summit (talk) 15:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's 無 (mu - nothingness), written in black on a black background.--Manga 23:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

my computer's been acting real weird, I made the image posted the question and when I was scrolling the page like sortof a portion of the image was displayed in the thumbnail and it the thumbnail rolled over the image as i was scrolling. um yea it turns out theres no image or whatever. 354d 06:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

name of word
What is the group of words called when the first letter of the word is moved to the end of the word and the meaning of the word remains the same? Example Banana backward it is still ananab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomsaga (talk • contribs)


 * Palindrome ? 68.39.174.238 15:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I'm not sure that the meaning of "ananab" is the same as "banana". As far as I know, "ananab" is not actually a word. Mike Dillon 15:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "ananab", which is "banana" with the first letter transposed to the end, is also "banana" backwards, an interesting phenomonen which I have not encountered before. DuncanHill 15:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Any more examples? If so, then we (we Wikipedia) can perhaps define and name the class. Bananaindrome or alindromep anyone? :-) hydnjo talk 16:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * that's just a class of near-palindromes (palindrome except for the first letter). There's nothing to prevent you from defining other classes of near-palindromes (such as, "palindrome except for the 3rd and 5th letters"), and nomenclature should somehow be systematic (if you can be bothered to classify them at all), such as (1)-near-palindrome. dab (𒁳) 16:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Tomsaga's definition requires that the initial letter be relocated to the end to make the "palindrome". hydnjo talk 16:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's the complete list from my /usr/share/dict/words:
 * A a B b C c D d E e F f G g H h I i J j K k L l M m N n O o P p Q q R r S s T t U u V v W w X x Y y Z z aa Ab ad ae Ah ah ai ak Al al am an Ao ar As as at aw ax Ay ay ba be bo Bu bu by ca ce da de di do ea Ed eh el Em em en er es eu ex ey fa fe fi Fo fu Ga ga Ge ge Gi go ha he hi Ho ho Hu id ie if in Io io is it Jo jo Ju ka Ko ko la li Lo lo Lu ly Ma ma me mi Mo mo Mr mu my na ne ni no nu Od od oe of Og oh Ok om on or Os os ow ox pa pi po pu ra re Ro sa se sh si so st ta Td te th ti to tu Ud ug um un up ur us ut Vu Wa wa we wi wo Wu wy xi ya ye ym yn yo yr za zo abb add Ann ann ass baa Bee bee boo cee coo dee ebb egg ell Emm err ess fee foo Gee gee goo grr ill inn lee loo moo naa nee odd off oii pee Ree ree saa see taa tee too ull vee wee woo yee zee zoo Adad adad Agag agog anan anon arar aulu ausu baba baga baka Bala Bana bara Baya baya bene bere bibi Bini biri biti bobo Bodo Bogo bogo boho bojo Bolo bolo Boro boro bozo caba Caca Cana Cara cava caza cede cepe cere Cete chih coco codo coho coto coyo Dada dada dama data Daza dele deme Dene dene dere dodo Doko Doto Emim eyey Faba Fama fana Feme feme Fiji fogo fono fugu Gaia gala Gapa gapa gara gata Gene gene gobo Gogo gogo Golo gugu guru hala haya Hehe hele heme here hobo homo hulu iiwi imam iodo Isis Jaga jama jara Java jete jibi jiti jobo Jodo juju Kafa kaha kaka kala kana kapa kasa kava Kele kele kiki kiri kiwi kiyi Koko koko kolo Koso koto kozo kudu kuku lama lasa lata lava lede lene lete lobo loco Lolo loro Lulu lulu Maba Maga maha Maia Maja mala mana masa Maya maya maza Mede mele mere mese mete Mimi mogo moho moio Mojo mojo moko momo Mono mono Moro moro Moxo moyo Naga naga Naja Nama Nana nana napa nese nete neve nidi nolo Onan Paba paca paga paha Pala papa para pata Pele Pete pete phoh Pici piki pili pipi poco Pogo polo Pomo Pudu pudu puku pulu Puru qere rada raga Raia raia Raja raja Rama Rana rana rasa rata raya rede reve Rifi roto ruru Saba saga Saka sapa Sara sasa saya sele seme Sere sere shah shih sidi sisi soco soho solo soso stet stot stut Suku Sulu Susu susu Sutu swow taha tala Tama tana Tapa tapa tara tawa tele tete Tiki titi toco toho toko topo toro toto Tulu tunu tutu typy vara Vasa vasa Vili Viti waka wawa wede wene were wese weve wudu wuzu yaba Yaka Yana yapa yava yaya yede yere yese yutu Zeke zobo zogo Zulu apoop bacca barra Bassa Batta batta belle benne bussu caffa Calla Canna canna cirri cocco dabba dagga dilli doggo freer Galla galla gamma Gibbi Hakka hanna hocco hollo jarra Jesse jinni kappa kette labba lacca Lappa lotto mamma manna massa matta messe motto narra Nassa Padda palla Panna Parra patta potto recce renne Riffi Rollo sarra stoot Tacca tappa tatta Tekke tekke tenne Tinni verre yacca yakka yalla yocco zimmi zocco zorro acidic acinic Anodon assess auhuhu banana batata beatae boohoo Bororo brewer Carara chapah claval cnicin crewer geejee glycyl gnomon Heinie hoodoo ideaed Isurus kokako korero kronor Macaca macuca marara meinie metate olivil Osiris palila peewee petite plagal pookoo potato prefer preyer Ranina repipe repope revive rococo sawbwa seesee teevee tooroo toozoo topepo torero trikir uneven ureter venene voodoo woohoo Yarura zoozoo challah dresser fretter grammar Guarrau knappan presser trekker barabara caracara dyspepsy galagala kivikivi kiwikiwi kolokolo Kukuruku libidibi locofoco Makaraka matamata mocomoco murumuru pirijiri piripiri poroporo protutor Purupuru ramarama redivide retinite semitime takamaka tikitiki torotoro assertress levitative predivider Wallawalla
 * Note that if there is no established name for these things, we (as Wikipedia) are not within our scope to invent our own name; see No original research. —Bkell (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The dual list, where the last letter must be moved to the beginning, is the following:
 * A a B b C c D d E e F f G g H h I i J j K k L l M m N n O o P p Q q R r S s T t U u V v W w X x Y y Z z aa Ab ad ae Ah ah ai ak Al al am an Ao ar As as at aw ax Ay ay ba be bo Bu bu by ca ce da de di do ea Ed eh el Em em en er es eu ex ey fa fe fi Fo fu Ga ga Ge ge Gi go ha he hi Ho ho Hu id ie if in Io io is it Jo jo Ju ka Ko ko la li Lo lo Lu ly Ma ma me mi Mo mo Mr mu my na ne ni no nu Od od oe of Og oh Ok om on or Os os ow ox pa pi po pu ra re Ro sa se sh si so st ta Td te th ti to tu Ud ug um un up ur us ut Vu Wa wa we wi wo Wu wy xi ya ye ym yn yo yr za zo aal aam eel eer ssu abac abas adad adat adaw aday afar agal agar ajar alan alar alas amah amar anal anam anan anay apar arad arar asak atap aval awag awat away axal ayah baba babe babu baby bibb bibi boba bobo buba bubo cack coca cock coco cuck dada dade dado dedo dodd dodo dude edea eheu eker epee even ever ewer exes eyed eyen eyer eyey faff fife fifo fuff gage gegg gogo gugu ibid ibis idic ilia ipid ipil irid iris ivin iwis juju kaka kaki kike kiki kiku koko koku kuku lall lalo lile lill lilt lily loll lull lulu mamo memo mima mime mimp mome momo mump nana nane nant nine none oboe obol odor ohoy papa pape pepo pipa pipe pipi pipy pope pupa rare rory ruru sasa sash sess sise sish sisi siss sist sosh soso soss susi susu tate tath tatu tete teth tite titi tote toto toty tute tuth tuts tutu ulua urus utum viva vive wawa wowt yaya zizz zuza abbas addax allan allay amman annal annat appay arrah arras arrau array assai assay attar booby deedy edder egger emmer emmet essed immit immix kooka peepy teeth teety tooth aenean alclad alular amamau amomal amtman ananas ararao bacaba banaba bedebt biriba caback camaca caract cilice civics divide epopee finify garage imamic karaka kawaka lobola lucule lunula lunule madame mazame minima nagana naiant natant niding niminy paraph rejerk reverb revere revers revert revery secesh semese sorose tarata terete tipiti visive wokowi cannach carrack collock diffide nipping rettery succuss suffuse tannate tillite adinidan avadavat mesoseme promorph riroriro rotatory selfless tartrate sensuousness
 * These words can be described as words n letters long such that the first n &minus; 1 letters form a palindrome. Likewise, the words in my first list are the words n letters long such that the last n &minus; 1 letters form a palindrome. —Bkell (talk) 18:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Arghhh! I can't believe that my bee-bee brain missed that concept! :-(  - hydnjo talk 19:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Knallcharge
Would it be appropriate to translate the German Knallcharge as ham (in the sense of a hammy actor), or is there more to it than that? Also, which word is more derogatory? Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 13:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's a good translation. Knallcharge, similar to Knalltüte, can also be used off-stage, for a silly, buffoon-type person. To me, Knallcharge sounds slightly more derogatory when applied to a person's (intentional or not) real-life hysterics, but perhaps equal in detraction when the exaggerated acting is a defined part on stage (e.g. slapstick parts, commedia dell'arte, Hitler on ice etc.). ---Sluzzelin talk  01:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, PONS has buffoon attributing Knallcharge to film and theatre only, without offstage reference. Maybe my understanding of ham isn't entirely correct. I think buffoon works well though and just saw I had used it above. Knall- in connection with people has the flavor of craziness (e.g. "Knallkopf", "Knalltüte", "durchgeknallt", "Du hast wohl einen Knall?"). Charge nowadays is a not very respectful word for a supporting role in general, but originally came from French chargé as in loaded, and was used for stereotype loud parts loaded with clichés and overdone, as could be seen in in comical opera and theatre (Possen, Schwänke, Lustspiele). ---Sluzzelin  talk  07:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I now looked up ham, and PONS has "Schmierenkomödiant'" for the noun, and "'übertrieben darstellen", "zu dick auftragen" for the verb. ---Sluzzelin talk  07:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sluzzelin. I was curious because I read a German news story describing Tom Cruise as a "Hollywood-Knallcharge". All definitions of the term implied a comedic role, but that didn't seem right. It seemed more like they meant "Hollywood ham". The only other person described as a "Hollywood-Knallcharge" (according to Google) is Adam Sandler, which seems entirely appropriate. Bhumiya (said/done) 12:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, when Cruise is called a Knallcharge, it's definitely derogatory, referring to his unintentionally comical acting clichés (the way he flexes his muscles of mastication, say). In Sandler's case, I think Knallcharge applies to his roles and the way he (deliberately!) plays them, which can be annoying, just like some people can't stand Robin Williams in movies, but the attribution isn't as condescending here, and, if at all, criticizes taste rather than acting skills. ---Sluzzelin talk  00:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That clears it up. Bhumiya (said/done) 14:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian: "Hurrungane"
Could someone who knows something about Norway or Norwegian confirm this edit, in which it is claimed that the name of the Norwegian mountain range Hurrungane "roughly translates to 'The Bastards'"? —Steve Summit (talk) 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sort of, yes. This is especially clear with the variant spelling Horungane. It's a negative word meaning the bastards (the whore-offspring). Haukur 19:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that the page has now been modified to include an alternative etymology. Nevertheless I think the meaning first suggested is the one that will most readily come to people's minds. I'm not a native speaker, though. Haukur 19:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! —Steve Summit (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What language is the linked Wikipedia in?
What language is the wikipedia in please? DuncanHill 18:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Per ISO 639:l, it looks like "lmo" is the ISO code for the Lombard language. Mike Dillon 18:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent, thank you Mike. DuncanHill 18:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the Lombard language article a little closer and it appears that there are actually two different Lombard languages, Western and Eastern. When I tried to figure out which language is being used for lmo.wikipedia.org, I noticed that it seems to be both. Take a look at these two links: Even though the former redirects to the latter and both seem to mean "introduction", looking at the two different articles results in different sidebars! If you look at the first one, the portlet titles on the sidebar are "navegazzion" and "interazzion"; if you look at the second one, the titles are "navegassiú" and "interassiú". There are also differences in the portlet links themselves ("La Wikipédia, vargòt a l'è?" v. "La Wikipédia, ergòt è-la?"). What's more strange is that it seems like the sidebars don't match the language of the link clicked; I would think that the "ssiú" words would go together and so would the "zzion" and "zziun" words...
 * lmo:Wikipedia:Introdössiú
 * lmo:Wikipedia:Intrudüzziun

Can someone please confirm that they're seeing this same behavior before I go crazy? I looked at lmo:Monobook.js and viewed the HTML source of the two pages and the differences appear there as well, so I don't think this is being done with site JavaScript. Mike Dillon 21:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The original link I provided has tabs on it which appear to switch between different orthographies or dialects of the language, one occidental and one oriental (which would correspond with Western and Eastern variants). DuncanHill 21:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The community portal uses unified orthography. The page called Koiné da servizzi says: "The ’’’koiné da servizzi’’’ is a minimal synthesis of the Lumbaart dialects. It's used in the portal, the pàgine de jutt, and, in general", in pages of service, i.e., dedicated to the working of the Wikipedia. (my "translation", but I don't speak that language) A.Z. 21:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I figured it out... In lmo:MediaWiki:Sidebar, they have a conditional transclusion of one of two templates, lmo:Template:Sidebar 0 and lmo:Template:Sidebar 1. There is a modulo expression that is supposed to make it alternate every other day, but because of caching issues, it actually gets stuck on whatever day the page in question is cached. Since the URLs are different for the two variations, Wikimedia's Squid cluster caches them in separate entries... Looks like a funny way to avoid western/eastern edit warring over the sidebar. Glad we don't have any disputes at that level of visibility about American and Commonwealth English. Mike Dillon 21:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I hit "Pàgina a l'asard" (random page) several times and found that each article has a subhead specifying a dialect. Wow.  Most are in Bergamasch with "unified" orthography, but there's also lmo:koiné da la ferovia, the common dialect of the railroad(?).  &mdash;Tamfang 00:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Special type of acronym or initialism, what's it called?
I'm looking for a term to describe a type of acronym resembling another word or phrase when the initial letters are pronounced separately. Examples: FX for "effects", ICQ for "I seek you". The article on acronym and initialism calls them "pseudo-acronyms", while the article on pseudo-acronym calls ICQ a pseudo-initialism, The example that prompted this question is Éric Serra's album title RXRA, which yields something close to Éric Serra when pronounced in French (/ɛ:ʁ/iks/ɛ:ʁ/a/). Is there a more specific term for this other than pseudo-acronym or pseudo-initialism? ---Sluzzelin talk  22:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC) (I checked L.H.O.O.Q. too, but the article simply calls it "a coarse French pun". ---Sluzzelin talk  23:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As well as pictures, rebuses often use single letters standing for their own names, so things like FX can be considered a form of rebus, and I have seen that term "rebus" used informally for them. But of course a rebus for "I seek you" could also use pictures of an eye and a ewe, so even if you accept the term, it isn't specific to these constructs. --Anonymous, July 23, 00:17 (UTC).
 * Thank you! That didn't occur to me, and it makes perfect sense. ---Sluzzelin talk  05:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just in case this may help, in French it is called "allographe". Korg (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Great link, thanks, Korg. Interesting, three angles, three terms (allography, rebus, pseudo-acronymy) all of which more often mean something close to yet distinct from ICQ-type word play. It floats in the intersection of the three semantic fields. ---Sluzzelin talk  07:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)