Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 July 27

= July 27 =

Easier, more important languages for English speakers
I'm not one of them, I just this ask out of curiosity. I have 3 concerns about "easiness", namely grammatical similarities, vocabulary and the "easiness" of finding good learning materials/native speakers. Importance is international importance.

I guess the two following questions would be similar, namely: Which 5/6 languages would fit these criteria? Which 5/6 are the most popular (e.g. in high schools; I don't know the case of, say, the US)? I reckon all would be major European ones, but don't know which. French, German and Spanish may be the most popular trio, but what about the others?--61.92.239.192 01:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I can answer your 2nd question. generally the 5 most popular languages in US high schools are... French, Spanish, German, Latin, Italian. I can't think of another language that is popular in high school (maybe Russian?)


 * As for similarity to English - well, German and other Germanic languages have a lot of etymological similarities with English (for obvious reasons). The grammar of Romance languages is also relatively similar to English. "Easiness" would definitely be Spanish, at least in the US. ugen64 06:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Latin seems to be the odd ball. Though I'd not neglect the cultural significance of Latin for someone who wants to learn a lot of languages and about many cultures, Latin is not easy, without any "native" speakers left and without economic importance.--61.92.239.192 13:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Latin has some economic importance to me: if I hadn't studied it I'd be less likely to have my present job (medical transcription). &mdash;Tamfang 05:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In the UK the usual foreign language which is taught in schools is French, with to a lesser extent Spanish, Italian, and German. Linguistically, I suspect the "easiest"/closest foreign language to learn would be Dutch, but this is rarely taught in schools - largely I suspect because the Dutch people are so good at speaking English! In my part of the UK, it was compulsory in my day (35 years ago) to do Welsh for 2 years (I think now it's compulsory to age 16), but that's not an "easy" language for English speakers, it's just the other major native language of the country. -- Arwel (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Who/Whom
Hey guys! Usually I can figure out the who/whom thing on my own (that's Latin for you!) but this one has me stumped. Complete the sentence: "Guess ____ I saw on the street today." My mom insists that it's who, while I think that since a) 'Guess' is a verb requiring an object of what you're guessing and b) 'I saw' also needs a direct object, it should properly be whom. I agree that the majority of people would find 'Guess whom I saw" distinctly weird, but just in terms of what's correct... Thanks! СПУТНИК CCC  P 02:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe you are correct for the reason you say. Of course, "whom" sounds weird in most cases, whether it is correct or not. H YENASTE 02:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Grammatically speaking we need "whom", but for your reason b) only, not a), as we can say "Guess who is going to do that" etc. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say you're prescriptively correct, because "whom" is the object of "I saw", but your Mom is descriptively correct, because most people would in fact say "Guess who I saw". A Google search for the phrases "Guess whom I" and "Guess who I" gives a ratio of 577:364 000 (about 1 "Guess whom I" for every 631 "Guess who I"'s). 05:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The object of "Guess" is not "who", it's the complete noun clause "who I saw on the street today". "Who" is indeed the object of "saw", though.  "Whom" is, in my opinion, obsolete; it's just that some people haven't gotten the memo about that yet. --Anonymous, July 27, 2007, 05:25 (UTC).
 * See also our article on Who (pronoun), which states (among other things): "Whom is falling out of use in informal English (increasingly, especially in American English, in some formal situations as well)." --Lambiam 05:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You'll be basically correct if you only ever use "whom" after "to", and in every other situation, use "who". Neil   ╦  08:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really - there are many other constructions where "whom" is correct, e.g. for whom, under whom, with whom. --Richardrj talkemail 08:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Suffice it to say that "whom" is both dative and accusative.--K.C. Tang 10:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Wait--you killed  who? Tesseran 00:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

how do previously isolated groups learn each other's language
Are there any descriptions of how Europeans and Native Americans first learned to communicate with each other? It seems like it would be very hard without one person first knowing both a European and a Native American language. Was it decades before there was a pair of people who could communicate an abstract idea across this language divide? Is there a name for this subject, or a good place for me to read more about it? ike9898 13:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can reach the stage where neither is trying to harm the other and both want to communicate, the standard approach in most novels is to start with nouns - point and say the name: man, rock, tree, horse, hand - then to develop action verbs: run, walk, eat, drink - and develop from there. -- SGBailey 13:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * One way of solving this problem is to raise children bilingually and use them as translators and the most intelligent of them as language teachers. Depending on how difficult this "abstract idea" is, it would take maybe six to sixteen years before a pair of people can communicate an abstract idea across the language divide. Lova Falk 19:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a dumb question, but maybe native indians had translators to understand the languages of other indian tribes? So maybe understanding one group might also lead to understand a few others as well?Evilbu 23:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, they even had common trade languages like Chinook Jargon and sign language: Plains Indian Sign Language. Rmhermen 03:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I heard a story of a European who was shipwrecked in Japan in the 17th Century. He was shipwrecked in a part of Japan which had not had any contact with Europeans up until then, so there was no-one around to speak any language that the European knew. After staying there for a while, he was sitting on the beach drawing pictures in the sand to show the children things about the place where he was from, and he noticed that the children kept saying 'nani?' every time he drew something. This led him (correctly) to believe that this word meant 'what', so he started to use this, going around the place asking everyone what everything was called. This is how he started to learn Japanese. --Manga 01:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm quite sure the original poster will find this article interesting: La Malinche. --Taraborn 17:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

French -quiste suffix
Hello. In Quebec, Action Démocratique du Québec supporters are nicknamed "adequistes" in French. Bloc Québécois supporters are nicknamed "bloquistes" in the same language and province. What is with the -quiste French suffix? What are more French nicknames that end with the -quiste suffix and are associated with politics? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 14:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I barely speak French, but I'd say that the suffix is actually -iste (akin to English -ist), and that the said nouns are formed as a-de-qu-iste and bloc-qu-iste (or perhaps as bloc+iste, rendering "qu" to keep /k/ sound)? Duja ► 15:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously Duja is right, the suffix is -iste (equivalent ot English -ist) and the qu is just part of the root, (ADQ, pronounced /adeku/, and words like bloc finishing with c usually switch to qu if a suffix is added, in order to keep the /k/ sound). Lgriot 15:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

See the article for the ADQ. It says:
 * Its members are referred to as adéquistes, a name derived from the French pronunciation of the initials 'ADQ'.

Add on the "-iste" and you've got "adéquiste". Mike Dillon 15:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Parti Québecois supporters are also named "péquistes". Adam Bishop 17:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

So the -qu from the first two letters of Quebec is added to the -iste suffix because the last word of the mentioned political parties end with Quebec or Quebecois - right? --Mayfare 02:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly! Adam Bishop 02:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No! The Q is from the party abbreviation, where in turn it stands for Québec or Québécois.  But the U is there to make the thing into a normal-looking word; it's only a coincidence that it's also the second letter in "Québec".  Similarly in English slang, if people (probably in the US) lost their jobs due to a "Reduction In Force" layoff, they might say they were "riffed".  The F is doubled because "rifed" would not be a normal-looking word rhyming with "miffed"; it doesn't come from "fforce".  The U in "adéquiste" is there for similar reasons. --Anonymous, July 28, 2007, edited 02:47 (UTC).


 * Er, right, sorry :) Adam Bishop 03:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * ADQ is pronounced like adécu. Adécu + iste → adéquiste. Bloc + iste → bloquiste. The c is turned into qu before an i because -ciste would be pronounced with an /s/ sound, instead of a /k/ sound. --Lambiam 06:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

help or reference with these
would this be the aproperate place to ask for help or reference with where I could get a these(the references to art, literature, but primarraly focusing on history and from those analysis, write an essay about why I think art, literature,and history matters to humanity useing the noval "the children of men" by PD James) edited I dont think I am understanding or grasping alot of the composition 1 techings. could you please point me in the right direction? this is all I have for now the requirments are in the rang of 5 to 6 pages.

Shannon kerns Composition 1 Model essay 3 “In history”


 * “Art, literature and history”, the first thought that jolts into my mind is memories of Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci, who was not generally known for being a Italian polymath: scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, architect, musician, and writer. But typically for his optical allusions in paintings, sculptors and largely for artistic innovations, with the wisdom he possessed his works fundamentally affected his present time and impacting observations and interpretations of art, literature and  history. Which to me from the influences of past and present social environments, art, literature and  history to me represent knowledge. I wrote a scientific paper for a class I can not recall the specific grade, the year, age or teacher but it was a paper that challenged my knowledge of the past like this very novel.  “Children of Men” by PD James pushes the boundaries of knowledge, it lets us know that history is not always a first hand experience but it is a personal view.  “History, which interprets the past to understand the present and confront the future, is the least rewarding discipline for a dying species.” stated on page 11, I believe that this quote is saying there no future for the unfertile population because they are living in the last generation, therefore history is irrelevant to their existences. I learned that the affect of our past are felt in the present even if the present is tomorrow.
 * The era of frantic scientific research begins. In the absence of new human life in a world of mass infertility all medical efforts are focused on longevity, with everyone anxious to keep fit and stay alive. People lose hope in their future. If the human race is dying out, they see no point in planning for the future or preserving their national heritage. In the novel the year 2008 represents a time were the statistics say there is a great increase in suicide which shows the fact that no one wants to live if their is no one to care for. That is why there is a marked increase in the suicide rate. Women, who have grown up after the Omega year, are traumatized by the fact that they can't have children. Affecting the past of the end to future generations. Hopelessly, affected by the after math.
 * In the 6th grade I had a science teacher who has a very outstanding character. He was anther relative impact, a impinging force on me and how my mind relates or technically creating art and discovery history. He showed he how so many things can relate to one anther Thousands of years ago, intentional art was (in my personal opinion) tale less, sophomore illustrate ("sophism" or "dialectical" exercise, likely influenced by sophos + Moro "wise fool"-Microsoft words dictionary), non-realistic, animated, the lack of talent or skill was obviously under-developed. The trials and arrears of all the scientists long overdue confirmation on finding logic, an answer, a cure, or any type of satisfying news explaining the astounding wipe out of the nature human powerlessness to reproduce, also variously through out the novel contained identifiable the Omegas’ example and events of at age a person is educated but still needs to acquire the maturity of mind at the point of only beginning to learn yet have so much to continually learn. Man kink and our chronological efforts to impersonate, imitate, increase, supplement, alter, counteract, or negate the work of nature, is a condition in which our ancestors up to present relatives contributed to, the past history, all the lives lived, having some kind of impact on all of us, their children, intentional or not, the past has happened, happening is the only controller of truth, facts are the truth.
 * ”We are outraged and demoralized less by the impending end of our species, less then our ability to prevent it, then our failure to discover the cause.” Page 5 right in the beginning of the second paragraph Theo makes his attitude on What a outcome the anti-future is, so complexes humanity offend at the mortal ability to have absolutely no power over.
 * Art such as painting, sculpture, music, ballet, or literature. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature. High quality of conception, found in works of beauty; valued .A branch of learning; one of the arts. The body of all written works. The collected stories of a persons, group or culture.
 * for reasons unknown, the sperm counts of all human males plummeted to zero. The last people to be born have come to be called "Omegas": "A race apart,". Enjoying various prerogative actions and, in their mid-twenties, they generally seem to be very proud to be the youngest humans alive. I would be to, I can relate, growing up the youngest the tender loving care was at the time limitless. In abundance the nurturing from a very large family was in my eyes was all mine.

thank you for your time and passants
 * Am I a terrible person for giggling when I read this? I am not quite sure what the question you are asking is. Is this a translation for an essay written in a different language? Are you asking for help to rewrite it? If so it is rather garbled and would need a complete rewrite. It also seems to contain a little to much "filler" so to speak like the "I can not recall the specific grade, the year, age or teacher". It is quite wandering and confused. Lanfear&#39;s Bane


 * Confused? I"m pretty sure someone's asking us to help them with their homework here, aren't you? +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing wrong with that. We don't do the homework for questioners, but we may help them with it, especially if they show they have made an effort themselves. --Lambiam 05:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * One mistake I see is in using the wrong word:


 * "Sculptors" = people who sculpt.


 * "Sculptures" = what they make.


 * As a general word of advice, avoid using words unless you know what they mean. For example, don't use "arrears" if you don't know what it means. StuRat 01:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

possesive' apostrophe'?
We're struggling with the correct use of the possessive apostrophe. In this example:

"Do patients with a more autonomous regulatory style report a better health-related quality of life (HRQL) than patients with a more controlled regulatory style and is this relationship dependent on their adherence to doctors’ advice"

is the ' on the doctors correct, or not, and why?

Thanks if you can help...
 * Yes, that's right. You're basically saying "their adherence to the advice of doctors", and this is a correct way to shorten it. --Richardrj talkemail 21:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See Apostrophe. --Anon, July 28, 2007, 02:45 (UTC).

adaption - adaptation
What is the difference between an adaption and an adaptation?

Examples will help us...


 * They both mean exactly the same, but the longer 'adaptation' is preferred, and suits the word's etymology better. My source is the OED. — Gareth Hughes 22:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Suffice it to say
I know the word should be pronounced exactly like it's spelled, and the above expression is correct. However I could have sworn I heard someone on TV saying "Sufficer to say". It annoyed me and I racked my brains to think who used to say this occasionally - it was Lt. Tuvak from Star Trek Voyager. Anyone know if this is a common mistake, or is "sufficer" another accepted pronunciation of suffice? Sandman30s 22:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've never heard that one (perhaps it's a 23rd century development, or the result of a Vulcan language transfer effect?), but I have heard "sufficient to say" (I think George Peppard said it in Breakfast at Tiffany's). At any rate, "suffice it to say" is the canonical form, but I can imagine that its subjunctive mood and its marked word order render it susceptible to replacement. —Angr 22:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect Sandman30s is using "sufficer" to mean that the last phoneme is schwa, not /r/. Thus, he is probably hearing the weakened vowel from 'it'. The 't' of 'it', of course, merges with the 't' of 'to'. Hence, the Vulcan is presumably saying "suffice it to say". Haukur 23:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Haukur that is most likely the case - of course if you don't know the expression it would make it harder to understand. Sandman30s 07:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I have never considered how to write it down before, but "suffice to say" with the last e on suffice sounded as a schwa, sounds normal to me (I am a native British English speaker). I have never watched Star Trek so it must be more common than a vulcan thing! Cyta 07:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In Britain, I have never heard anyone pronounce the 'e' on the end of 'suffice' at all. I have heard people reduce the 'it' in 'suffice it to say' nearly to a schwa. If you have never encountered the phrase written down, I suppose it could be a bit of an eggcorn. I used to think Frere Jacque contained the phrase 'Sonny semolina'; it happens. Skittle 20:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess it's just me mishearing then! As I have never seen it written down I just assumed they were saying 'suffice to say'. I should read more books, although you can get the opposite effect then, when people know long clever words but don't have a clue how to pronounce them! Cyta 07:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Who dares to use 'geegaw' in conversation? Skittle 19:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The best solution is to be well-read and an experienced conversationalist, it seems. --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 03:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, how do you pronounce 'geegaw' and what does it mean? Cyta 07:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)