Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 June 3

= June 3 =

Derivation or Etymology
I know names have meanings because this site has a database of all first names and their meanings and pronounciations: http://www.behindthename.com. However, I do not know what does the name "Eragon" mean. '''What does this name mean? What language is it?''' Is it hebrew? Keturah in Keturah and Lord Death is a hebrew name, meaning "incense". 69.216.16.151 00:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you mean this Eragon: it's just a made-up name and has no more significance than, say, Frodo or Gereth. --Lambiam Talk  01:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It is an anagram of the name of a fruit. A.Z. 01:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If it is the anagram of the name of a fruit, then I think the fruit's name is orange. That's the only fruit I know that has those letters. On the other hand, Eragon may have a derivation from "Aragon", or the place name of Catherine of Aragon, the first wife of King Henry VIII. 69.216.16.151 04:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem with that is that the name did not derive from anything. It's fictional. The study of Etymology tends to look at small changes in a word appearing over time as people moved across physical distances and socio-economic journeys. This is, instead, the mind of a fantasy writer. The note about Frodo is spot on. - M  ask?  08:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just guessing, but it looks to me like Dragon+1. -Reuben 08:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's also an anagram of the name of a species in the horse family and a siege weapon, and it resembles paragon and Eradan. And Alagaësia sounds like a painkiller, which is what the makers of the Eragon film must have needed after seeing its critical reception. But Reuben is spot-on above: quoting the author himself:
 * I use several techniques for inventing the names of characters and places. Sometimes I write lists of interesting sounding names, switching syllables and letters until I find ones that I like. Names such as Eragon and Saphira incorporate a bit of wordplay: Eragon is dragon with one letter changed (it also means era-gone, as in a time gone by).
 * --Lambiam Talk 12:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"Full of action"
Apart from "action-full", what is an adjective that I can use to describe something is full of action? For example, an action movie is full of [this word] events. Thanks! --JDitto 04:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just say that it's "eventful" (or "action-packed" if you prefer slightly outdated hyperbole). AnonMoos 05:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe dynamic works too (in the sentence example you gave, anyway). ---Sluzzelin talk  07:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Frenetic? Frenzied?  I like hyperkinetic, too ... I always smile when I see that in a film review, it's a  word you see nowhere else.  Neil  ( ► ) 09:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * (Including film reviews on wikipedia, see the article on Burst City) ---Sluzzelin talk  09:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "An action-packed thrill ride that will blow you to the back of the theater!" is traditional.  --TotoBaggins 13:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitions: "agalma" and "plotin"
Looking for further detailed definitions for these words. They don't seem to be common words. Context #2 here under definition of dialectics. Thanks.--Doug talk 14:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The OED flags "agalma" as Greek, and obsolete in English. "An honour, ornament, statue, picture. Found in Dicts., but never used in Eng." The word Plotin is shown in your source in brackets and small caps, and I assume it stands for Plotinus. If you Google both "Plotinus and "agalma" you will find a few suggestions as to what he meant by it.--Shantavira|feed me 16:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the answer. I also was stumped by "plotin" - which I do now believe you are correct as to meaning Plotinus; as I also found "Platon" using your Google suggestion. Platon and Plotinus apparently mean the same thing, and related dialectical mythology of "PROCLUS" of similar meaning. Thanks for clues.--Doug talk 16:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Platon" or "Platoon" is (transliterated) Greek for whom we call Plato. This was a very different person than the Neoplatonist Plotinus (in Greek "Plotinos" or "Plootinos"), who lived about six centuries later. The latter is also not to be confused with any of several Roman people named Plautinus, on none of whom we seem to have an article. --Lambiam Talk  17:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again Lambiam for clearing this up. There are three figures here of Plato 428 - 348 BC and Plotinus 205 - 270 AD and Proclus 412 - 485 AD.--Doug talk 20:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Place names etymologies in England
I'm not a native, so some might seem too obvious to some, but I'm a bit curious about the origins and meanings of common parts of English place names, a few that have been bugging me for a while are:
 * Chester (as in Manchester, Chesterfield)
 * "le" in between names (as in Chester le street)
 * "upon" in names, and why it's spelled with hyphens instead of spaces every so often (Newcastle upon Tyne, Stoke upon Trent)
 * "-ton" suffix

Actually, if anyone knows a database of stuff like this in general that'd be nice too :)

Thanks

EditorInTheRye 16:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "X-upon-Y" means a town called X built next to a river called Y. I don't think the hyphens are significant, but I don't know for a fact.  "-ton" is just a corruption of "-town".  "Chester" means a (military) camp.  --TotoBaggins 16:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, -chester comes from the Latin castra, meaning 'military camp'. Places so named have some connexion with Roman forts. The -ton ending has the same root as the word town, but originally designated any small settlement. I think the le found in some names comes from the French names of the Norman barons who held those fiefs; i.e. it is the Chester owned by Lord Le Street. — Gareth Hughes 16:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * While that is indeed a very frequent pattern of English village names (at least in the south), I have a hard time believing in a Seigneur Le Street. Street in English placenames means a Roman road, and Chester-le-Street is on Cade's Road.  – The best reference I know of for English placename etymology is The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names by Eilert Ekwall (1936, 1940, 1947, 1960), ISBN 0-19-869103-3.  (Is there a standard WP markup for ISBN?).  &mdash;Tamfang 00:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Aha, ISBN markup is automatic. &mdash;Tamfang 00:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, town comes from Old English tun "enclosure, enclosed land with buildings," later "village". It is cognate to German Zaun "fence, hedge". Rather than being a corruption of -town, it did not undergo diphthongization in its unstressed position in names like Chesterton. Alternatively it may derive ultimately from the pre-Saxon Welsh `"Ton" - a leyland or "common". (Geiriadur Cymraeg, Collins, 1967)


 * Calling anything in linguistics a "corruption" is unscientific, but more happened than a simple failure to diphthongize. Old English tūn has a long vowel [u:]; in the suffix -ton that long vowel has been shortened and reduced to [ə] or has disappeared altogether (leaving the [n] syllabic). —Angr 17:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * BTW, the same happened in German. "Cambodunum" has been shortened to Kempten, which some pronounce [kɛmptn]. &mdash; Sebastian 18:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Calling anything in linguistics a "corruption" is unscientific. For all intensive purposes, I agree with you. :)  --TotoBaggins 18:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Any town ending with ley was almost certainly once in a forest. Leah being converted over time to ley. - X201 18:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The original Chester (Deva or Castra Devana to the Romans) was one of the three principal legionary bases in Britain, the home of Legio XX Valeria Victrix for over 300 years - the others being Caerleon (Caer being the Welsh equivalent of Castra) (Isca or Isca Augusta, base of Legio II Augusta for about 225 years) and York (Eboracum). On the other hand, Manchester was called Mancunium by the Romans, although it did have a fort. -- Arwel (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You may want to see the article List of generic forms in British place names; it has most suffixes and prefixes. The -upon- bit simply comes from the fact that are multiple Newcastles in Britain, one of which is located on the River Tyne, so it is the "Newcastle upon Tyne" as opposed to, say, Newcastle-on-Clun. Stoke incidently is usually called "Stoke-on-Trent", rather than "Stoke-upon-Trent", but the meaning is the same, as is the meaning of Weston-super-Mare (Weston on the Sea) and Newcastle-under-Lyme (Newcastle on Lyme). Laïka  21:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * All correct except for the last bit: 'under' does not mean 'upon' (how could it?) It generally means 'in' (or more usually, 'on the edge of') a forest. This is more obvious in Ascott under Wychwood, but according to, Ashton under Lyne and Newcastle under Lyme, though far apart, bordered the same forest (which actually bore a Brythonic name meaning elm rather than lime as one might suppose). --ColinFine 22:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

What do these Irish words mean?
I am reading a book by an Irish author, Quench the Moon, by Walter Macken. I am able to figure out most of the unusual words, but I cannot figure out these to words: pucauns and gleoidhteoigs (that is the exact spelling in the book). What are they?71.255.102.92 19:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)CC


 * They are the names for traditional types of sailing boats, if they are the same as púcán and gleoiteog; see our article on the Galway Hooker. --Lambiam Talk  19:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeezum Crow, Lambiam, is there any language you don't know?? —Angr 19:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I asked Lambiam the same question on his\her talk page. I also didn't get an answer. :-) Bielle 01:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you from Vermont? --Lambiam Talk  20:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, why? —Angr 20:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Because Jeezum Crow is Vermontese − to the extent that it has been said the Vermont state bird is the Jeezum Crow. --Lambiam Talk  21:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. I think I heard it first on The Simpsons. (That must answer the question of what state Springfield is in, then!) —Angr 04:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Second
Is there an etymological link between the two uses of `second' in English, (i.e., coming after first, and 1/60th of a minute)? Thanks, Llamabr 20:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is. The second is the second sexagesimal division of an hour (the minute is the first one). —Angr 20:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The historical origin of the word second in the meaning of 1/60th of a minute is actually given in the article you linked to. --Lambiam Talk  20:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that it's not only hours that are divided into minutes and seconds, but also degrees. (If it's necessary to disambiguate we use "arcminutes" or "minutes of arc" for sixtieths of a degree, and similarly with seconds, but a usage like 51°28'38", we just say "minutes".)  The same etymology applies here.  I remember reading somewhere that 1/60 of a second (of arc, I think, but maybe time, or both) was at one time called a "third" and written with a triple prime (the sign " for seconds is a double prime, not a quotation mark).  And I guess you could go beyond that to fourths, fifths, etc. as needed. --Anonymous, June 4, 2007, 03:37 (UTC).


 * I guess you could, but I've never seen that. For the sequence of higher derivatives of mathematical functions, which initially are also denoted using prime symbols, I have seen
 * $$f',~f,~f',~f^{iv},~f^{v},~...\,,$$
 * switching to italic minuscules in Roman numerals. --Lambiam Talk  10:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)