Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 June 30

= June 30 =

Learning Received Pronunciation
Does anyone know of any good web sites for learning how to speak English with good Received Pronunciation? Alternatively, are there any materials that would be readily found in an American library? I'm trying to pick up a proper British dialect, but don't really know where to start (apart from simply watching British television). The Jade Knight 02:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You can stream British Radio (www.bbc.co.uk) via the internet, and Radio 4 is a wonderful source of British accents. It's easier to keep it on as a subliminal drip than TV, too.SaundersW 08:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Mind providing a link to Radio 4? The Jade Knight 02:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Here: Click the link in the top right hand corner to listen live (ish) (There is a delay of a few seconds so the time signals are annoyingly wrong.)SaundersW 10:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Birds of the Anatomy
Why are so many names and nicknames for types of birds (boobies, hooters, tits, cocks, etc.) also slang terms for parts of the human anatomy? --Carnildo 05:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A great etymology site is...http://www.etymonline.com There you can put in words and it will explain the word's history. Tit seems to be something to with 'small' and so the birds are literally just named after a description of size (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tit&searchmode=none), hooters doesn't feature but I would venture a guess that 'hooters' are named after their voice...some owls at least 'hoot'. Not sure how it branched off to me breasts but I guess once a series of bird-based versions for breast occur people will start to 'add' new ones themselves, if they become popular they then become widespread. Cock seem to be 'to stand up' and since cock/hen is a very popular male/female term for birds (peacock/peahen) I guess they are just both meaning the same thing. I think cow/bull are used a lot for female/male in mammals too incidently. Boobies comes as (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boobies&searchmode=none). Quite an interesting site. Not sure of the links to bird-names though. ny156uk 10:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Provincial tenses
Hello. I am writing something about Canadian provinces, and there are some situations were I am unsure of what verb tense to use. Most times it's obivious to use the singular "Ontario is ...," "Prince Edward Island has ...," etc. But I'm uncertain about two cases. Regarding Newfoundland and Labrador, is the singular correct, as in "Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's newest province."? And what of the Northwest Territories? Years ago, when NWT was divided into several districts, it made sense to use the plural, as in "The Northwest Territories are north of the 60th parallel." But now that there are no divisions in NWT, should it be singular or plural? ("The Northwest Territories is/are between Yukon and Nunavut.") Thank you. — Michael J  19:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd use the singular (even as a big fan of the British group plural); otherwise in order to make the syntax consistent, you'd have to use "Newfoundland and Labrador are Canada's newest provinces.", which would be very confusing and imply that Newfoundland and Labrador are two separate territories. Laïka  22:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Taking a look at Northwest Territories, it seems that the sigular is preferred. Also, note that "the" is not used frequently. Just as one wouldn't say, "*The Ontario is...." This makes the singular sound better, at least to my ear. Example: "As a territory, Northwest Territories has fewer rights than the provinces do." I wonder if Canada has any official guidelines on the matter.&#8201;—&#8201;gogobera (talk) 01:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "The" is not used as commonly with the Yukon as it used to be when I learned to say "the Yukon", but it is with the Northwest Territories. I just had a look at the Government of the Northwest Territories web site (as you might guess, gov.nt.ca), and that's what they call it -- and yes, they use "the Northwest Territories" as a singular.


 * As for "Newfoundland and Labrador", just keep in mind the English rule that an expression like that is singular if it denotes one thing. "Good think it's a long weekend -- some rest and recreation is what I need right now."  --Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 05:54 (UTC).
 * "Good think"? Corvus cornix 16:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good think, bad type. :-) --Anon, July 3, 03:57 (UTC).
 * Though it would sound delightful to say "Some R&R are what I need." Tesseran 01:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek question
I've read that in Greece and in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they tend to speak Ancient Greek using Modern Greek pronunciation. This approach appeals to me for a number of reasons. The one thing that concerns me is the merger of ημεις and υμεις, which seems like a crucial distinction. Does this mean that it is impossible (or impractical) to use modern pronunciation-Ancient Greek as a conversational language? --Lazar Taxon 20:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think New Testament Greek is used as a liturgical language, not really a conversational language. The closest thing to ancient Greek that was sometimes used in a conversational context in modern times was some form of Katharevousa, which was not the same as ancient Greek.  In any case, nominative subject pronouns are often expressed by verb endings... AnonMoos 06:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cigarette slang
While flicking through news channels, I chanced upon an interview by the (American) station CNN with a member of airport security staff following the 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack. One line in particular stood out when the man claimed that he had been outside at the time "having a fag" - ie; a cigarette. However, I wondered how this would go down in the US; are people there aware of the British meaning of the term, or would they have thought the man was using homophobic abuse on air? Does the US have similar slang terms for cigarettes? Laïka 22:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As a citizen of the US, I understand that fag in Britain means "cigarette." In fact, most Americans (I believe) are aware of the British meaning and would understand. In any event, it wouldn't make any sense that the man would say that on the news if he meant "homosexual," and any unaware American would immediately accept the idea of there being a second meaning. In the US, I've heard cig as slang for cigarette. You may be able to find more terms at Wikisaurus.--El aprendelenguas 23:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Fag is very common slang for cigarette in Britain, Australia and NZ, and I'm sure in other places as well. It's also become accepted (if not always acceptable) slang for a male homosexual, which makes it slightly ambiguous these days when one says "I'm just going outside for a fag".  --  JackofOz 23:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * OTOH, and to answer the original question which wasn't really addressed, no, most people in the U.S. do not recognize this use of the word "fag"; most would probably associate it with "queer" or another epithet for homosexual. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, just by way of spicing up the topic a little, y'all are aware, aren't you, that the fancy-schmancy word for bassoon is "faggot", literally "bundle of sticks" (as in the sense of a "flaming faggot" or piece of firewood). So it's all nicely tied together ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a rather fascist comment. -- JackofOz 01:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have lived in California all my life and have seldom ever left it. However, I certainly know that "fag" is slang for cigarette, but that is because I have always read a lot of novels--including many by British authors. I think that any well-read American would know this. --Eriastrum 16:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but consider that last statement of yours, which contains a contradiction in terms. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's at least well enough known in the states that a FOX show could make fun of it (Notapusy episode of Arrested Development). I've certainly known that fag could mean cigarette in Britain for a while, but probably from some British comedy show.  &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 21:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you know what someone meant if they said "can I bum a fag" :) 86.132.231.97

Yes, but I would need to know what country I was in at the time. (If this is Tuesday, it must be . . .) Bielle