Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 June 7

= June 7 =

Weird incident
I received an anonymous note in an envelope recently. Is there a way to narrow down what type of person wrote it based on the handwriting and content? Is there a book or website that can help me figure it out?76.16.216.41 04:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Your first stop should be Graphology, though the accuracy of the process is debated. —Angr 04:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * thanks. Do you know of any websites or books I can use?
 * Dood, the graphology page is full of relevant external links (see the bottom of the page). Anchoress 06:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Dood??? *scribbles Anchoress' name off the top of the cool board* *inserts somewhere near the bottom, just above anonymous IPs*. 213.48.15.234 07:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Quite right. Here on the language desk we always spell it dude.--Shantavira|feed me 08:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Learning Hanzi/Kanji
Is it reasonable to attempt to learn Chinese characters (many of them doubling as Japanese Kanji) without learning a spoken Chinese dialect (or spoken Japanese)? My ultimate goal would be to be able to read Chinese (which I know would require learning character combinations and syntax) and to be able to make out place names on signs when traveling in Japan. I do not expect ever to speak more than the most rudimentary Japanese or Mandarin. If these characters can be learned apart from the spoken language, can anyone recommend a program or method for learning them? Thank you! Marco polo 15:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (Alas, it is true that Marco polo's Chinese skills are rudimentary.)
 * You can, by learning to speak Korean instead. ;) See Hanja. More seriously, it's easier to grasp written symbols when you know how to read them. --Kjoonlee 18:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's certainly possible. There are web sites and books specifically designed to teach you about the characters: .  You can find the Chinese characters for place names in Japan, Korea, and China on their Wikipedia pages.  But I think you'll enjoy it more if you learn them in the context of a particular language.  If you're going to Japan, learn katakana first, then hiragana, then some kanji.  You'll be amazed how many words you can make out in shop windows and signs, because katakana are used for writing foreign loan words, and lots of them come from English.  Signs in places like the subway or train stations will have the Japanese name in kanji and sometimes also hiragana, and in romaji.  So you can learn new characters and place names as you go.  But it will make a lot more sense if you learn katakana and hiragana first.  --Reuben 18:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There is the Oxford picture dictionaries, but IIRC, the kanji in it are not paired up with kana, which makes people going from English to Japanese a lot harder than going from Japanese to English. But it does fit your specific purpose of wanting to learn how to read kanji if you're still bent on learning to read without learning to speak. That'll be weird when you read though, because how will you sound them in your head, or will you translate every word to English as you read? --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 19:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that many many kanji consist of a phonetic part ("sounds like horse") and another part that hints at the region of semantic space where it belongs; so it would be hard to avoid learning something of the pronunciation. &mdash;Tamfang 22:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

My primary goal is really to be able to read Chinese. I have actually studied a bit of Mandarin, so I would learn the Mandarin pronunciations. I am thinking of a trip to Japan perhaps 2-3 years from now. My idea was that once I had learned maybe 3,000 Chinese characters, I could get a guide to the Japanese pronunciations of the most commonly used kanji, maybe learn katakana and hiragana, and some very basic spoken Japanese, and this would make my trip to Japan easier and richer in meaning. However, my primary purpose is to learn to read Chinese. My second motivation is that the characters fascinate me. Being able to find my way around in Japan is less important to me. I am less interested in speaking Mandarin or any other Chinese language, because I do not foresee a trip to a Chinese-speaking place. However, I believe that China will be a growing global cultural influence in coming decades, and I would like access to Chinese literature and web content. I was also thinking that it might be interesting to be able to read some Chinese literary classics. Possibly I would want to improve my Mandarin listening skills so that I could understand Chinese video, but that project would come later than learning the writing system. Now that this is clear, is there any flaw in my plan, and are there any aids you can recommend for learning the Chinese characters (with Mandarin pronunciation), rather than the kanji, which might come later? Thanks again. Marco polo 19:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What kind of Marco Polo are you without a visit to Cathay? --Lambiam Talk  08:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Many Chinese words consist of more than one character, most often two, and the meaning of the word can often not be found in a straightforward way from the meanings of the individual characters (for example, mao "lance" + dun "shield" = maodun "contradiction"). You'd still have to learn these. --Lambiam Talk  22:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * hey Lambiam, I really like your example! Seems that you've got the crux of the problem. It's indeed a big problem to make people distinguish between words (ci 詞) and characters (zi 字). I'd say 99% of Chinese do not know what the difference is between words and characters. And the non-Chinese learners are just fascinated or driven mad by the characters. I'd like to tell every learner of Chinese: the characters are sirens, don't look too close at them, or you'll be lost.--K.C. Tang 01:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Further to the idea of learning the Japanese pronunciations of the most commonly used kanji: these generally have several "readings", both on (Chinese) and kun (Japanese) readings. Some common kanji have as many as ten different readings, the correct one of which to use depending on the intention of the kanji's use and its context. When kanji is used in names, you just have to know how to pronounce it (almost like English Cholmondeley, but actually worse because it is so pervasive). --Lambiam Talk  09:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lambiam, it is a little embarrassing that I have not been to China and don't foresee going there. The reason is that I have no need to go, and, from what I understand, it is an unpleasant place to travel.  In this, I am unlike the real Marco Polo, whose name I adopted due to my interest in geography and history and especially the intersection of the two, and, obviously, not because of any China savvy.


 * However, I have studied a bit of Mandarin, and I already know that in modern Chinese most words consist of two (or more) characters and that I would need to learn these combinations. I also know all about on and kun readings.  Still, each character carries some meaning, and your example, in which "mao" + "dun" = "maodun", is a case in point.  While "lance shield" does not "mean" contradiction in English, it suggests it and knowing the meaning of each character has mnemonic and hermeneutic value.


 * Now that I've conceded this, is anyone willing to answer my original question: What is a good method or program for learning the characters (and perhaps later the character combinations)?  Marco polo 13:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've only been to Hong Kong, but everyone I've spoken who had been to mainland China appeared to have enjoyed it. For learning kanji, there are some links in our article Learning kanji, which however appear to cover mainly online aids. For books, a list can be found on this page. The book Essential Kanji has good reviews on its page at Amazon.com. Some more book pages at Amazon.com: Lets Learn Kanji: An Introduction to Radicals, Components and 250 Very Basic Kanji (maybe a good start), Kanji ABC: A Systematic Approach to Japanese Characters, and Remembering the Kanji I: A Complete Course on How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters. --Lambiam Talk  15:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Lambiam. As for travel in China, everyone I know who's been there hated it and told horror stories!  Marco polo 16:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

suffixies
Sorry to bother you. I am looking for words that can be added to other words, such as Tele, Micro, Graphic. I am trying to find out what I would have tto add to a word to make it say something/someone is dependant on something, the son of something, doesn't need something, and is written (instead of graphic, meaning is a picture). Any ideas?


 * English does not have a prefix or suffix for every concept. Sometimes it is necessary to use a separate word as a modifier.  However, you can combine some words to make compounds.  For example, if you want to say that something or someone is dependent on something else, you can add the component "-dependent".  (Example: "The boat's schedule is very weather-dependent.")  However it is often better just to say that "x depends on y". (Example: "The boat's schedule depends on the weather.")  You might conceivably do something similar with "-independent": e.g. "The metro system is quite weather-independent", but this sounds awkward.  In this case, it would be better to say, "The metro system is little affected by the weather".  For "son of something", you really need to say "x's son": e.g. "the king's son". For written, as opposed to graphic, you could use the word "written" or "text" before the expression you want to modify.  For example, "I would like a written explanation rather than a graphic explanation."  I hope this helps.  Marco polo 20:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

OK. Sorry. So what would it be in (Greek?)? Like supposing I wanted to say something like that so it sounded similar to the other words. Is there any suffxes I could use that would be authentically greek sounding?

Correct spelling or word use
Which is correct when referencing, is it "website" or "web site" ? 68.72.132.241 18:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * See Website. Basically your choices are "website" writ small or "Web site" capitalized. —Angr 18:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, there are three choices: "web site" is also widely used. I'll fix the article to mention this. The official web sites for the White House and the British royal family both spell it that way, for example. So does the Vatican site, at least in its meta information. (I don't assert that consistent spelling is used throughout each site; I searched on "web site" and these were among the top hits.) --Anonymous, June 7, 23:46 (UTC).

The Date
Can someone help me out - on June 5th the date was 5/6/7 and at 4 minutes past 3 it was 3/4/5/6/7. I believe there is a name for this. What is it? regards Brighton Belle
 * Sequential time according to the article and BBC. I think it's an ambiguous term though, since it can have a different algorithmic meaning, for instance. Maybe sequential date? ---Sluzzelin  talk  19:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Who writes the date and/or time in that manner? -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, the log-system at work I'm staring at right now, uses the following endian form: 05.06.07 08:09:10 (or 07.06.07 22:12:53 "right" now, CET). See also Calendar date for different forms. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, on this side of the Atlantic, it was 6/5/07 yesterday, so our big day was April 5, 2006 (4/5/06). Also, I'm unfamiliar with the use of a slash mark in clock readings ("3/4?"). -- Mwalcoff 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And I guess for countries who use yy/MM/DD, it'd be 01/2/3, 4:56 AM? --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

from Pride and Prejudice
She is seduced by Mr Wickham and runs away with him without much thought for the consequences to her family, but Mr Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr Darcy.

What does "Mr. Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr. Darcy," mean? Mr. Wickham and Mr. Darcy are both marrying the same person? Huh???


 * It means, I assume, that Mr. Darcy convinces Mr. Wickham that he (Wickham) should marry her. Adam Bishop 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * So, it really means "Mr. Wickham is convinced by Mr. Darcy to marry her."


 * Right. Adam Bishop 23:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Zain Ebrahim 09:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this is going to help but...In "Mr Wickham is convinced to marry her by Mr Darcy..." the her refers to Lydia and not Elizabeth. The sentence should be changed to active form.


 * The sentence is in a section titled "Lydia Bennet". What in the world would make you think it referred to Elizabeth? Or did you just get the sisters mixed up? Clarityfiend 22:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)