Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 March 23

=March 23=

Portuguese
I've always assumed -- without much linguistic evidence -- that since the Moorish invasion was less pronounced in Portugal, Portuguese was/is less influenced by Arabic linguistic elements than Spanish. While I know this is a rather complex issue, is my assumption more or less correct? --Cody.Pope 07:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Our article Influence of Arabic on other Languages states "Arabic is a major source of vocabulary for [...] Spanish" and "Portuguese acquired about 1000 words from Arabic". The article Arabic influence on the Spanish language gives a number for Spanish: "It is estimated that there are over 4000 Arabic loanwords in the Spanish language", with the caveat that many of these words are regionalisms. --Lambiam Talk  09:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are many words in Portuguese acquired from Arabic, especially those starting with "al". Spanish seems to have more of these al-words, so maybe yes it might have been more influenced.-- Hús  ö  nd  03:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How about aspects of the language other than vocabulary, such as grammar? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

U'Brien
I recently came across a person on TV whose surname was shown as "U'Brien". At first I assumed it was a typo for O'Brien, but I've since found some examples on Google, so I guess it is a real name. Is it a variant of O'Brien? In all my meanderings among Celtiana, I've never seen this before. JackofOz 09:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Since google doesn't allow punctuation in its search queries, most of the results you get searching for U'Brien are actually "U. Brien" and "U Brein", and the remainder -- the ones that are actually "U'Brien" are generally easy to pass off as spelling mistakes because most of them are spelled differently in another place on the same page. That's my take at least. 222.158.162.242 10:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I find somewhat consistent references to Jane U'Brien: ••. --Lambiam Talk  11:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * (ec) I'm not so sure, 222. Here's a website  for a Jane U’Brien, who's unlikely to misspell her own name.


 * This one has 2 mentions of a Senior Constable Matt U'Brien  - and I think that's the same guy I saw on TV.


 * This one mentions 9 different people with that surname.  JackofOz 11:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This web page suggests a development Überrhein > Uberhein > Ubrihien > Ubrien > U'Brien. The original bearer of the still obviously German name emigrated from Germany to Australia in 1855, where the name was Celtified. --Lambiam Talk  11:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) All I can think is that it's an anglicization of Ua Briain, which in Irish is variant of the more common Ó Briain. —Angr 11:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC) I defer to Lambiam's evidence. —Angr 11:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he's on the money, too. So, a German from above the Rhine transmutes into an Australian of apparently Irish ancestry.  How wonderful.  Thank you, Lambiam.  JackofOz 11:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Surname suggests that Uí, as in Uí Néill, "is used in reference to a kin-group or clan". If it is derived from Uí, then U'Brien would be of the O'Brien clan. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yugoslavia: spelling change?
About two years ago, I watched an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. The case featured was a student who killed his teacher, who was from Yugoslavia (the case happened in the late 80's and was filmed in the same time period). The suspect wrote bogus letters to her family in Yugoslavia explaining the crime. The show showed the suspect spelling the name of the country as "Jugoslavia" on the envelope. This leads me to wonder: when the spelling of Yugoslavia change from a "J" to a "Y" in languages besides Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (Serbo-Croatian) and Slovenian? - Thanks, Hoshie 11:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yugoslavia is the English language spelling. Do you have any evidence former yugoslavians changed their spelling? - Mgm|(talk) 12:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think in most Slavic languages using the Latin alphabet, "j" is used for the sound [j], as well as in German, Swedish etc... I think it's just as basic as: Languages generally using "j" for [j]: Jugoslavia or similar, Languages generally using "y" for [j]: Yugoslavia or similar. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 13:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * During one of the World Cups in the 80s, I and my friends were always bemused as to why Yugoslavia was suddenly now spelled 'Jugoslavija' (with two 'j's). Mind you, we were even more stumped as to why USSR had suddenly become CCCP, too...CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 22:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How's that? On their team shirts? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 00:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure. "USSR" = "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was the English translation of the country's name. In the original Russian the initials are "SSSR" when written in our alphabet, but look like "CCCP" when written in their Cyrillic alphabet, as it naturally would be on their shirts.  --Anonymous, March 24, 2007, 03:08 (UTC).

Actually, The New York Times used "Jugoslavia" until the mid-20s and sporadically until 1960, according to a search of its archives -- Mwalcoff 06:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Teal And Cyan
Prompted by the discussion above on "oh noes" and the experssion "tealdeer".

Very often online I see people mixing up Teal and Cyan, most often insisting that the color cyan is called teal, but sometimes mixing both colors up (thinking about it, I think I remember seeing it mostly on the game Warcraft 3). I would be relieved when I finally came across someone who wasnt telling me to "attack teal" when the only teams were red, blue and cyan. (yes, both cyan and a tealy color were used in the game).

Is it something in some education system somewhere? Are people teaching these kids wrong color names!? Has anyone else come across this? Is it widespread? Capuchin 13:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently, teal is a kind of cyan. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a shade of cyan, but cyan is a specific color of equal parts green and blue light. Is teal the same but darker? I'm confused Capuchin 14:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * According to their articles, yes. Cyan is hex color 00FFFF, which means equal amounts of green and blue and maximally bright, while teal is hex color 008080, which means equal amounts of green and blue but only 50% bright (halfway between black and white in brightness). —Angr 15:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I used to teach a computer class with color coded exercises, and found that many people didn't know the word cyan, so started calling it "light blue", instead. They should all watch Blue's Clues, which features all shades of blue, like periwinkle. StuRat 16:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm over it, I'm over him ...
I have a question about the idiom "being over someone/something". For a long time, I alwas understood "I'm over it." as meaning something like "I'm not upset anymore, I've moved on.", closely related to "getting over sth/s'one", I guess. For a number of years now, I've noticed it being used in its opposite meaning too (i.e. "I'm still upset, I haven't moved on"), particularly when applied to people, "I'm over him, for not calling", "Mom is soooo over you" etc. Is this usage mere irony, or can being over actually mean both? (Thanks) ---Sluzzelin talk  13:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably both, although it's different overs. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 15:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think you have the 2nd meaning quite right, it's "our relationship is over". There might also be an implication that they don't think of the other person any more, when they really do.  Of course, people often say a relationship is over when they don't really mean it, too. StuRat 15:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"I keep your picture upon the wall, it hides a nasty stain that's lying there." StuRat 15:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Queer
I came across a random article that described Lisa B as a "queer" poet. Am I behind the times or is this word still considered derogatory? Clarityfiend 22:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sidetracking again... is there any notability to that article? Mayeb it should be put up for AfD. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 22:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It can be, especially if it's being used by someone who isn't LGBT. It's used by some LGBT people as a sort of term of pride and identity, though (see Queer). I wouldn't use it if I were you, though, and especially don't call someone that --Miskwito 23:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to know if I should edit it out, but somebody beat me to it. Clarityfiend 23:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have edited it out, too. If the article were in better shape, and Lisa B's self-identification as "Queer" could be cited, we could have left it in; without such clear citation, we cannot tell if the word is being used appropriately, so I think eiting it out OR adding the usual "citation needed" tag could have been appropriate responses by Wikipedia policy.  Jfarber 14:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Because of the emergence of Queer Theory the term has implications that go beyond mere identification of sexual orientation or functioning as an insult. I agree that self-reference as such is the key. If such can be found, I would say "a self-described queer poet" or "identifies as a queer poet" because of possible misinterpretation and add a link to either queer or queer theory. That said, although I'm no real fan of queer theory, there is something useful about a cover-all term for those of us to who do not conform to what might be called canonical sexual orientations and identities. mnewmanqc 14:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If used in neutral third-person writing (as opposed to "you are queer") and if used as an adjective ("X is a queer writer" rather than "X is a famous queer"), I'd never interpret it as pejorative. Who does anymore? Maybe if it's preceded by "goddamn" or "motherfucking", but even then it still wouldn't have anywhere near the force of "faggot" or "fag", which is what all self-respecting homophobes use these days. Nor does it strike me as a naughty or particularly forceful word which "outsiders" have to avoid. It's been used in a neutral manner since the early 90's (or 80's, for all I know) and has lost just about all its derogatory impact by this point. The idea of "queer" as an insult smacks of the 70's and would be an anachronism today. And if we link it to "Queer theory" or "Queer cinema" or whatever, there's no ambiguity at all. One more thing to consider: anyone against whom the term could be used as an insult would understand its modern usage. The only people who would be uncomfortable with this are straight people who think it's still offensive in all contexts. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "Self-respecting homophobes"? I doubt such a thing exists. —Angr 22:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not?


 * I could have written "up-to-date homophobes" or "modern homophobes", but that would be no less paradoxical. I suppose my point is that homophobes tend to be aware, in the groping, benighted way in which they are aware of such things, that certain words are more offensive than others, and will never employ for the purpose of abuse a word that could accidentally imply a homophilic or neutral sentiment. Hatred forbids that moderation. No genuine homophobe will use "fairy" or "pansy". It carries too great a risk. This is why Fred Phelps uses "fag" instead of "ponce". Bhumiya (said/done) 04:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Homer Simpson surely has as much self-respect as any cartoon character, and a decade ago he said of "gay" in Homer Phobia "that's another thing! I resent you people using that word.  That's our word for making fun of you! We need it!!". Notinasnaid 09:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he was actually talking about "queer", which nicely illustrates the point. Even in 1997, Homer Simpson knew that "queer" no longer worked as an anti-gay slur. And by the end of the episode, he had also learned that "fruit" was the preferred nomenclature. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a deadly tricky kind of area (I speak as a gay man). In a recent incident in England, the police were called in to a school to investigate a video on which 2 or 3 teenagers had chanted the words "Yid Army". It turned out that the teenagers were Tottenham Hotspur supporters and Tottenham Hotspur fans frequently chant "Yid Army" in support of their own side (Tottenham, apparently, being an area with a greater than average Jewish population). On the other hand, the complainant was their own ex-teacher, who happened to be Jewish. Frankly, I don't envy the police ... - EAH (Edward Hansen)