Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 March 3

=March 3=

Pronunciation
How is "neither" pronounced? I don't know IPA, [:-( ] so what does it sound like? --hydnjo talk 02:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Listen to this. Wikipeditor 02:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I got knee'-ther so, is nigh'-ther appropriate in some other circumstances? --hydnjo talk 02:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no rule for when you should say knee- and when you should say nigh-; both are acceptable pronunciations. Probably one or the other is more prevalent in particular areas. --Ptcamn 02:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OK then, does one pronunciation over the other characterize one's education or such?
 * Maybe if you're a linguist. Otherwise, no. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that Wirbelwind, I have sometimes felt awkward in the company of those who pronounce neither as "nigh-ther" and thank you for that reinforcement. --hydnjo talk 05:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One might say that neither knee'-ther nor nigh'-ther is preferable. JackofOz 02:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Among educated midwesterners I've always heard me neether, and about the only time I hear nyether is in the nyether .. nor construction. Just a data point, and seems to jive with what I hear elsewhere. - Taxman Talk 17:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the Gershwin song “Let's Call the Whole Thing Off,” both pronunciations are acceptable: You say ee-ther and I say eye-ther. / You say nee-ther and I say nye-ther. / Ee-ther, eye-ther, nee-ther, nye-ther, / Let's call the whole thing off. (The song then goes into the whole to-may-to / to-mah-to bit.) — Michael J  17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Pictogram/ideogram
I just found that we have both the articles pictogram and ideogram. Anyone can tell me what's the difference between them? Thanks a lot.--K.C. Tang 03:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A pictogram is or is derived from a picture of an object thus making it more likely to represent a noun, whereas an ideogram represents an idea. Ex:

-LambaJan 05:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think your explanation is better than that found in the pictogram article or that at Wikitionary.--K.C. Tang 12:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Proverb
"Clothes make a man" May I get the details such as genesis, by which English Bard, under what circumstances it originated etc. regarding this proverb?DineshMatha 07:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Dinesh, it's a rather loose adaptation of a few lines from William Shakespeare's play, Hamlet, where Polonius offers the following advice to his son;


 * Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement


 * Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,


 * But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;


 * For the apparel oft proclaims the man. (Act 1, scene 3)


 * The actual phrasing is most probably based on Manners maketh man, the words of William of Wykeham, one time Bishop of Winchester, and the founder of Winchester College, one of the great English public schools (my brothers were both Wykamists!). This is now the motto of both Winchester and New College, Oxford.  Clio the Muse 08:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Almost 2,000 years ago, Quintilian, in his Institutio oratoria (VIII, 5) also wrote: "Vestis virum reddit". ---Sluzzelin talk  23:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Lauren in Chinese
How is the English name "Lauren" normally written in Chinese? --Candy-Panda 11:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but after having read Transliteration into Chinese characters, it seems transliteration is often not a one-to-one process, but an ad-hoc process based at least as much on hanzi meaning as pronunciation. I think there are a few characters used when aiming for "basic sound value", but their usage seems in no way universal. 惑乱 分からん 13:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * One way to find out what precedents there are is to go to the Wikipedia articles of some famous bearers of the name, and then see how they're represented in Chinese Wikipedia. Unfortunately, neither Lauren Bacall nor Ralph Lauren has an article at zh, but maybe some other Laurens do. —Angr 13:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Go to D. H. Lawrence, or go here, or copy this: 勞倫. Cheers. --K.C. Tang 14:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks K.C. Tang! That IPA to Chinese transliteration chart was very helpful. Funny thing is, the first thing I did when trying to find Lauren was going to the Chinese Wikipedia and searching for Lauren Bacall and Ralph Lauren after I had done the same with my sister's name by going to Queen Elizabeth's article. Unfortunately, 勞倫's translated meaning of "labor, toil, do manual work + normal human relationships" isn't as cool as my sister's 伊丽莎白 translated meaning of "third person pronoun; he, she, this, that + beautiful, magnificent, + kind of sedge grass, used anciently for raincoats + white; snowy; empty; blank; bright; clear; plain; pure; gratuitous" but it's still interesting nonetheless! Cheers. --Candy-Panda 08:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Spanish speaker wanted
To read over this. Shouldn't take too long. Contact: User:Marskell on his talk page. Payment: one barnstar. Marskell 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You want the whole text read, or what? (I mean, the PDF is about 20 pages...) For which reason? 惑乱 分からん 18:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And, do you just want someone to read it, or do you want it translated? Like...what are your goals here, exactly? --Miskwito 20:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Easiest way to learn Mandarin Chinese?
Hi,

I am a 15 year old student, and I would like to learn Mandarin Chinese. I see much value in learning this language, as there are many speakers and it is quite unique. I think it will be a fun and entertaining experience for me. I see many, many courses with mixed reviews, and I don't know which one to choose. I see that some have different level books, which would be helpful, because after you are done with level I you would be able to move right on to level II. I am a complete beginner, and have no background/cultural experience whatsoever regarding Chinese. What would you recommend? Thanks! Kc2lyq 19:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Kc2lyq


 * Especially since you have apparently no experience with the language (may I assume you have limited experience with the people as well?), I would stress the importance of obtaining that experience by immersing yourself in the language and culture in some way. While living in China for a year might not be possible for most interested in learning the language, an active interest in Chinese movies, books, literature, story, poetry, even cartoons, would benefit you immensely, and any textbook study of a language should be accompanied by a healthy share of real language; not just the sample readings from the CD on the back of the book. Lately, podcasts have become very popular, and are a great way to get a daily input of useful language. Sorry I can't recommend any good books for you! 222.158.163.245 08:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * KC, you have very little choice. I assume your high school does not offer Mandarin.  Your local Chinese cultural association might, but their classes will almost certainly be oriented towards ethnic Chinese youth who have some contact with the language.  Without some real life contact, you are not going to learn the language.  Trust me on this.  As a self-starter who has never mastered a foreign language - which I assume is also the case for you - you are never going to get enough from buying a self-study course to genuinely help you. Very experienced language students can sometimes learn a significant amount from self-study books.  And even for them, it's hard to do with a "remote" language like Chinese and it's difficult when compared to an ordinary classroom curriculum.


 * Realistically, call the local Chinese cultural association, or look to see if there's a Confucius Institute in your area - the phone book is a good place to start here. If you're in California, see if your high school will let you take language courses at the local community college for credit.  They sometimes do that, and the California CC system is an excellent starting point for Mandarin.  At any rate, do try to enroll in a real class with a physically present teacher.


 * Failing that, if you insist on trying to learn from a book or have no other options, the Chinese university system actively supports the New Practical Chinese Reader (ISBN 978-7561910405). Those books are built around passing the standardized exams used for Chinese in China - the Hànyǔ Shuǐpíng Kǎoshì.  It will, in over 90% of cases, be either the book used in Chinese second language programs or will cover almost all of the same vocabulary at the same level.


 * Good luck. Chinese is a wonderful and stimulating language to learn.  But I warn you: it is very, very hard.  It requires a level of discipline you would not need for Spanish or German, and you must look forward to years of relatively slow, often very unrewarding progress.  I do not say this to discourage you, but to give you the kind of realistic sense of what you are taking on that many language learners do not have when they start and that will avoid disappointments later.


 * 我祝你好运. 学习汉语真非常好. --Diderot 16:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, User and Diderot. I know it is a very tough language, and at the local cultural association, they don't offer classes because "everyone already knows how to read and write" there. I will try the "New Practical Chinese Reader", and hopefully gain some verybasic knowledge. Hopefully later on, maybe during my college years I will be able to pursue the language further. I think the study book you (Diderot) recommended will be a nice introduction. Unfortunately, here in NY, there is not many places to learn Chinese. I am only 15 miles away from Chinatown in NY City, but it is tough to get there alone and be immersed. Not much is offered here in Nassau County. Thanks again for the help!

MAP91 19:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)MAP91, formerly Kc2lyq


 * You might consider taking Elementary Chinese at Queensborough Community College. Also, you may find more Mandarin spoken in Flushing's Chinatown (which may be more accessible to you) than in Manhattan, where Cantonese and other southern dialects tend to predominate. Also, you might want to consider these Chinese-language meetups in and around New York.  Marco polo 00:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're a visual learning type like me, you may find it helpful to write flash cards for vocabulary (english on one side, hanzi and pinyin on the other, with the two so separated that you can look at one and cover the other. I color coded the characters by tone: Blue-Green-Brown-Red. This way I could use my visual memory to remember the tone.) &mdash; Sebastian 20:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help everyone. THe QCC course looks like a nice alternative to total self-study.  Flushing's Chinatown is definitely more accesible to me than Manhattan's Chinatown.  Also, thanks for the heads up regarding the predominancy of Cantonese and southern dialects in Manhattan.  I did not know that this was the widespread dialect in Manhattan Chinatown.  I am also a visual learner, and the flash cards sound like a good suggestion Sebastian.  Thanks again for the help!


 * MAP91 23:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Mike


 * If you have a fortune to blow, I highly recommend the Rosetta Stone Chinese software. It's not good for learning to write, but it's excellent for picking up words and vocabulary.  It is, however, extraordinarily expensive.  You can, on the other hand, go through the first two lessons for free online, and that can be very helpful for developing a basic sense of the pronunciation.  The Jade Knight 06:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hypocrait?
According to my understanding of the silent e rule, the word 'hypocrite' should be pronounced as 'hypocrait'. Why does hypocrite (and probably a great number of other words) not follow this rule? --Superfly2005 20:06 3 March 2007
 * Because if ever there were "rules made to be broken", they're the rules of English orthography. —Angr 20:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly. English is the most flexible language in the world, which does much to explain its global success.  Clio the Muse 20:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not really accurate. What do you mean by "flexible" here? The fact that English's orthography is often very irregular makes it more difficult for others to learn. Its global success is due to the economic/political influence of English-speakers/English-speaking countries throughout the world more than anything else, not because English is somehow better or simplier or more "flexible". --Miskwito 20:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you calling Clio a hypocrait? Clarityfiend 22:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ha! Ha! A badge she accepts with pride!   By flexible I mean, of course, a language which adapts most readily to its environment in a myriad of forms.  There is now no such thing as standard English, and I delight in hearing all the variations on a theme in my travels over the world.  It's also the language of the global community in the widest sense, whereas French, the old 'international' language, was only ever the idiom of diplomats. But I do not dismiss  entirely the economic, cultural and political factors.  Clio the Muse 23:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Among polysyllabic Latinate words, "-ite" is pronounced that way when it represents the old "gentilic" suffix (Israelite, Moabite, Canaanite etc.), but generally not when it represents an adjective suffix (original Latin past participle), as in "definite", "opposite", etc. "Contrite" is an exception (but it only has two syllables). AnonMoos 02:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Would that explain "finite"? Black Carrot 06:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * More to the point, finite and infinite have different pronunciations of "-ite", another example of the "flexibility" of English ;) Capubadger 09:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)