Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 16

= May 16 =

Categorical Assertion
Can anyone tell me what a categorical assertion is? Thanks! --Ali 04:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a statement about an entire category, rather than individual members of that category, like "all cats are sneaky" or "all categorical assertions are false". StuRat 04:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was simpler than I thought... Thanks StuRat! --Ali 04:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Colloquially, 'categorical' is sometimes used as a lazy synonym for 'definite'. This interview from the Guardian newspaper, for example, poses the question, "So just to be categorical: John Terry was not involved?" Goodness only knows what a philosopher would make of that! RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 11:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC).


 * The first meaning of categorical listed here is: "without exceptions or conditions; absolute; unqualified and unconditional: a categorical denial. The interviewer apparently wanted to hear a categorical denial of John Terry's involvement from the interviewee. An example of a categorical denial is Alger Hiss's statement: "I am not and have never been a member of the Communist party. I do not and have not adhered to the tenets of the Communist party." Note that a categorical proposition is a very different thing; some cats are tailless is one. Here "categorical" has another meaning: pertaining to a category (in this case, the proposition is that some cats belong to the category of tailless things). In "categorical imperative", we are back to the meaning of "without exception" (which is not the same as "unexceptional"). --Lambiam Talk  12:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair point! Thanks - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 14:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

what language is this?
Nodo ga kara kara. *sigh* Kafunshou de hanamizu ga tomaranai. Gaara-kun, aishiteru... demo orewa doriimu yaku waga purinsu. Gomen nasai, Gaara-kun. *sigh* Kakushigoto ha yoku nai yo, demo shinjitsu wo shiranai hou ga ii toki mo aru. Wakarimasen demo mou iya! Sumimasen. Nande sou naru no. Nanda sou naru no? *shrugs* Sokomade sekinin wo toru koto ha dekimasen. Watashi no koto kirai nan da, purinsu. Nido to aitaku nai. Hai, hai... Atarashii oshigoto demo ganbatte kudasai. Karada ni ki wo tsukete ne. Sayonara, Gaara-sama.

can you please tell me which language is this n what does it mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Warriorzsoul (talk • contribs) 06:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC).


 * It's Japanese. Sayanara at the end is a valediction. --Tony Sidaway 06:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is Japanese and it looks like it might be from Naruto. In either way, I think some sort of copyright has been violated with its posting.—Ryulong 06:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I shouldn't worry about copyright. The piece posted is barely long enough for us to decide that it's Japanese, and where it's probably from. --Tony Sidaway 06:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is Japanese. Here is the translation:
 * I am thirsty.*sigh*. I have hayfever and my nose won't stop running. Gaara-kun (male name)...I love you. But, I (male) am the Prince of Dreams. I am sorry, Gaara-kun. It is no good to hide things, but there are also times when it is better not to know something. I don't understand, but no more! I am sorry. Why have you become like this? Why have you become like this? *shrugs* I cannot take this much responsibility. Prince, you hate me. You don't want to meet me again. Yes, yes... But, work hard at your new job. Take care of yourself. Goodbye, Gaara-sama (male name). Manga 14:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that the speaker addresses Gaara with two different honorifics: -kun, which is informal and intimate (used towards males), and -sama, which is used toward persons much higher in rank than oneself. --mglg(talk) 20:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The "kun" and "sama" vary with mood and intent. "Aishiteru" sounds like romantic love to me.  The writer or speaker is extremely fond of Gaara and apologizes on an intimate basis.  The more formal and in this case sincere honorific in the closing clearly signals the writer still regards Gaara highly but will keep his distance emotionally from now on - the love affair is over, as Gaara apparently wishes.  "Sama" can also be used sarcastically, or coldly in anger, to signal emotional distance.  Normally it refers to someone of very high rank or respect as mglg says.Vendrov (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

missing words and mispronunciation
My 5 year old son pronounces his TH sound (ie THis, THese, THat) as a v (ie Vis, Vese, Vat) and also, when asking a question, he will miss out the second word of the sentence (ie, "please you help me?" instead of "please will you help me"). are there any terms for this - he's due to see a speech therapist soon and I'd like any info I can before hand so he/she doesn't baffle me with science.

thanks Spiggy83.104.131.135 13:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * He's using a labiodental fricative instead of an interdental fricative . Also, he's leaving out auxiliary verbs. I'm not an expert on language acquisition, and I don't have my textbooks with me, but these sort of simplifications, ex. consonant mergers (similar fricatives are being used) and auxiliary verb dropping (simpler syntax, with one less verb) seem natural in the acquisition of language. If you feel your son is doing it for too long, bring it up with the speech therapist, but I wouldn't be surprised if he/she says it's normal. --Kjoonlee 16:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If the speech therapist says something you do not fully understand, you should ask them to explain it. The "th" sounds are among the last sounds for many kids (and learners of English as a second language) to get right. --Lambiam Talk  18:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

thanks for that info spiggy 83.104.131.135 10:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The Cockney accent does not distinguish thin/fin or that/vat. jnestorius(talk) 19:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've read the "th" sound is typically the last to be mastered by children. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As to the {please will you help me}>{please you help me?} a 5-year old doesn't naturally speak without some very predictable errors - in this example we shouldn't expect all 3 of the verb words loaded into a 5-word utterance to be covered. But notice that the meaning is 100% intact, which couldn't happen if any other word were omitted! Did you ever hear that pidgin languages and the grammatical "errors" of children during acquisition relate to a common grammatical structure: think of it as "humanese".  In other words, take Kjoon's advice to heart.  Don't encourage children to speak unnaturally, just keep modeling correct speech yourself.  And humor based on mispronunciation and incorrect grammar can serve as a good base for metaknowledge about language itself.
 * About "th", it is difficult; many non-English speakers (eg, Swedish or Japanese) can hardly attempt this sound.  Also 'TH' involves pressure on the front teeth and isn't it about time to lose the 2 front teeth?  I pronounced "ch" as "sh" when I was 5, although I could clearly hear the difference.  But to test for any possible receptive deficit (which is unlikely), use target phonemes in otherwise identical words such as "van" and "than" : cover your mouth and ask your child to identify which word is which.Vendrov (talk) 10:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon word formation
I know it is possible to form Anglo-Saxon words for people from adjectives by adding -ing to the end. E.g. ætheling. Is it possible to do a similar thing from verbs, in a similar way to the modern -er (e.g. murderer, from to murder)? Cyta 14:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the suffix -er is derived from the Anglo-Saxon suffix -ere, with essentially the same meaning. I'm not sure about the rules for combining the suffix, but I would guess that it was added to the verb stem in Anglo-Saxon.  Marco polo 17:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Wish I'd paid more attention to German grammar at school I might actually understand some of these cases and things. I am impressed that an uneducated (relative to today) population, who couldn't read and write much could remember what seems to me an immensely complicated language, but I suppose if you grow up speaking it you just know what's right or wrong. Cyta 08:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Useage of IS/ARE
WHICH IS CORRECT:

No dysplasia or malignancy is identified. No dysplasia or malignancy are identified.

A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed. A copy of the pathology report and cytology report are enclosed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.172.10.35 (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC).


 * "No dysplasia or malignancy is identified." is correct. OR means it's either one or the other. "A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed." is correct, since the A indicates that it's singular, i.e. it's one report. If it's two reports it should of course be "Copies of the pathology report and cytology report are enclosed." i.e. one of each.--Shantavira 17:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Right response, minor adjustment to the reason: "A copy of the pathology report and cytology report is enclosed." It is not "report" that is singular; it's "copy". The subject of the sentence is "copy". Easy way to know which to use: Remove the prepositional phrase and take the sentence down to subject and verb: "A copy is enclosed". Now, "A copy are enclosed" sounds rather funny, doesn't it? This editor finds that similar errors in subject/verb number agreement are common; the suggested method makes the correct verb easy to find. Unimaginative Username 20:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Proverbs?
'''== I cried on Christmas morning when I had no shoes.Then I saw a man who had no feet. ==''' Where does it come from? What is the rest of it.

The purse lies open and the golden coin is spent.81.145.240.147 20:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC) Where does it come from and is there any more to it?


 * Firstly, there are many variants of your first quote but I have never encountered a christmas-related one before. Secondly, Google reveals this page (scroll to the bottom) which recounts a previous investigation. The earliest occurrence mentioned is the Gulistan of Sa'di, written in 1258. Of course, it's possible that Sa'di was using an earlier proverb. Various webpages (such as ) have the full (translated!) text confirming this. Wikiquote will include this shortly. Algebraist 22:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * On the subject of the rest of it, a common joke (google knows many instances) continues "So I took his shoes. He didn't need them" or similar. Algebraist 22:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"I was sad when I had no shoes, until I saw a man with no feet. That made me think 'I bet he doesn't need his shoes any more, and even if he won't give them away, it's not like he's going to catch me when I steal them.'. " StuRat 00:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"I cried because I had no shoes, 'till I met a man who had no feet. So I said, 'You got any shoes you're not using'?" -- Steven Wright Corvus cornix 02:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Need help with Hebrew in a new article
I have just edited and uploaded an article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari. It contains four Hebrew words, but as images rather than characters. I'm not familiar with the Hebrew alphabet, and the font is not the same as the font in Wikipedia's Hebrew alphabet article, so I'm not certain I've made the correct conversions. Can someone who knows Hebrew please verify the characters I put in the article? Thanks. The original article is at --Rbraunwa 21:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I know the Hebrew alphabet, but my knowledge of Hebrew is very limited. I find these small and fuzzy letters hard to read. Here is what I think they spell out:
 * This is the same as in the article Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari, except that there the word-final form of the letter Mem is used twice in non-final position twice in item 1 (םי כםוך). If make a copy of the wiki source text here, you will get slightly larger print. --Lambiam Talk 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (edited 23:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC))
 * This is the same as in the article Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari, except that there the word-final form of the letter Mem is used twice in non-final position twice in item 1 (םי כםוך). If make a copy of the wiki source text here, you will get slightly larger print. --Lambiam Talk 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (edited 23:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC))
 * This is the same as in the article Israel ben Joseph Halevi Caslari, except that there the word-final form of the letter Mem is used twice in non-final position twice in item 1 (םי כםוך). If make a copy of the wiki source text here, you will get slightly larger print. --Lambiam Talk 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (edited 23:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Done. It's םי כםוך (who is like thee?) and לבני יצהר (to the children of Yitzhar). I note that, while the text itself is presumably in the public domain, the page you pointed to asserts copyright. --ColinFine 22:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've copied over the versions as above. --Lambiam Talk  23:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks all. If the external site asserts copyright, it is only of additions to the original text (formatting, indexing, posting, etc.). Copyright of the text itself has certainly expired. This is part of a Wikiproject to incorporate the wikified and edited text from the Encyclopedia. --Rbraunwa 00:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

french schools
ok im doing this thing for school but i cannot find anything on the canteens and the school hours can someone please help me?!?!?! i would like to know what sort of food they serve and the school times any help would be greatly appreciated Sammie hero 22:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)sammie_hero
 * This may help on the hours: http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-education/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=78. I seem to recall that traditionally French children went to school on Saturdays, and walked home for lunch. But things are changing. Notinasnaid 11:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A further reference to the structure and hours of the French Education system can be found here http://www.guide2poitoucharentes.com/information/119/A_Guide2_Education_in_France