Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 2

= May 2 =

Suggestions for the language ref desk

 * 1) Add "frequently asked questions" sect. It seems redundant to answer every week the same questions like "what's the most difficult/easy foreign language to learn" or "what's the best way to learn Mandarin/Spanish/...".
 * 2) Add "useful resources" sect., like http://www.etymonline.com/ etc, for checking etymology, slangs, conjugations ect.
 * 3) Add warnings like "please don't enter, if you are a purist who just wants to rant here in order to puff up your ego".--K.C. Tang 01:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The talk page seems to be a better place to discuss those things, or else the questions and the suggestions for improvement are all in the same place, and everything gets confusing.


 * Also, there is the Guidelines Proposal, an attempt to draft guidelines for the reference desks (just in case someone doesn't know this page yet... I didn't know it for quite a long time) A.Z. 03:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * those pages seem meant for the ref desk in general, not particularly for the language one. Each desk has its own problems, I guess. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 05:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All of these are ideas worth considering, if we assume that people will read whatever guidelines we come up with. But they won't. So it doesn't matter what they say. :-( Tugbug 07:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * @K.C. Tang There's nothing to prevent you from boldly implementing any of these yourself if you like. The ideas you present seem to have some merit, so here's at least one nod in support. dr.ef.tymac 13:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ehhh... FAQs really waste people's time unless there's a high probability that lots of people are looking for the answer to that specific question. While some questions show up every couple weeks, that's only one of hundreds of questions.  An FAQ here is almost guaranteed to be irrelevant trivia for 99 percent of the people looking at it. --JayHenry 17:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation from Arabic to English of Tahrir-ol-vasyleh
This is a big book. Its arabic is available here. There's no good translation that we know of. I doubt anyone here is going to help translate all of it. We're looking specifically for passages related to child marraige and other similiar controversial stuff. I dont know what to do but I thought I'll see what response I'll get so I'm posting here. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 02:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There are some translations on Talk:Tahrir-ol-vasyleh, perhaps you should ask for more help there. Adam Bishop 06:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (Oh, I see you are already active there, so nevermind! Adam Bishop 18:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC))

estúpido
My Spanish teacher won't let us use estúpido in class because she says that it is a bad word in Spanish (we use tonto). But how bad is it? Would it be considered inappropriate to use in a Spanish speaking country? 68.231.151.161 03:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about you and what you consider appropriate, but I would feel insulted if called "stupid" in English. --Lambiam Talk  09:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Usage and the sense of words vary greatly within the Spanish-speaking world. I'm not a native speaker so I can't help you. :( mitcho/芳貴 21:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This explains a lot. A.Z. 07:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * A perfect illustration of how not to approach a foreign language. "Estúpido" may be slightly stronger than the English word "stupid", but it's no stronger, adjectivally, than "imbecile" or "moronic", nor is it ever as strong or vulgar as "retarded". Unless you're talking to an old lady or wish to imitate one, I wouldn't take these exhortations to shun perfectly good words seriously. All they do is create a damaging mystique, a sense that it's "someone else's" language and we must tread carefully. Utter fallacy. Every word in its correct context. Teachers too lazy or overworked to teach you the context will tell you not to say the word. Simple as that. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "Estúpido" is stronger than "Stupid" in just about any dialect I am familiar with. "Tonto" is a better translation. mnewmanqc 18:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In Portuguese, estúpido means rude, rather than stupid. A.Z. 21:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Mis-cegenation
Is there any evidence that people think "miscegenation" includes the prefix mis-? If so, might this be contributing to its negative connotations? Neon Merlin  05:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In introducing his proposed Anti-Miscegenation Amendment, Rodenberry declared: "Intermarriage between whites and blacks is repulsive and averse to every sentiment of pure American spirit." It would appear that it is (a possibly diluted form of) this sentiment of "pure American spirit", which predates the introduction of the word, that gives the negative connotation to the word, rather than its misunderstood etymology. After all, people harbour no misgivings about miscellanies. --Lambiam Talk  07:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but that may be because the C is silent and everyone knows so. Neon  Merlin  21:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It is, is it?
Could someone tell me if this is correct?

Its = It is. It's = It has. Its - is also used to show possession. (E.g.: Its hair is brown.)

Does this change if one moves from British to American English?

Zain Ebrahim 14:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * 'it is' is abbreviated it's. So is 'it has', though (I think) never when has is the main verb. Its denotes possession. I believe the same is true in American English, though I can't be certain. 131.111.8.96 14:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflct)The first item in your list is incorrect.


 * Its ≠ It is.


 * It's must be used whenever the word is a contraction, whether it stands for It is or It has.  The form Its is only correct when showing possession.   The same rules apply in both British and American English.


 * Marco polo 14:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I also agree with 131 that It's can only stand for It has when has is an auxiliary verb. It cannot be used when has is the main verb:  It's been raining. but It has four sides.   Marco polo 14:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The misuse of "it's" for "its" is probably one of the most common subbing howlers in printed English - do a Google search for it's-plus-virtually-any-noun and you'll find an example. Here's an arbitrarily selected one: http://www.pure.com/Products/product.asp?Product=VL-60773&ReviewID=765 - RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 14:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
 * I find it easy to remember by remembering that contractions always have apostrophes, and that 'its' is the third part of "his/hers/its", which don't have apostrophes either despite being possessive. 213.48.15.234 14:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Abdoulaye Wade
The president of Senegal is called Abdoulaye Wade. My question, how is the name pronounced in Senegal?


 * Please see the response to your question on the Humanities Desk. --LarryMac 18:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

English r
Could someone tell me when r in English (aside from in Scotland) changed from [r] to [ɹ]? --Estrellador* 20:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Who says it was ever [r]? —Angr 21:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * There probably was such a shift at some point between Proto-Germanic and Modern English, but we don't know when it happened. Marco polo 01:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, cheers anyway. I was just thinking that, since nearly all Indoeuropean languages use [r] aside from those influenced by the French more recently, it was odd that English uses [ɹ]. Could it be an areal feature? According to the article, both Swedish and Dutch have it in some circumstances. --Estrellador* 18:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In Proto-IE (and at least to some extent in Sanskrit), /r/ behaves like a semivowel, so I question the statement that /r/ is rolled in "nearly all" IE languages. Also, I gather that the 'fat' or 'French' /r/ arose independently more than once.  &mdash;Tamfang 17:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot. --Estrellador* 12:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation
I need someone to translate the following prayer into Spanish.

God saw he was getting tired and the cure was not to be. So He put his arms around him and whispered "Come live with me" With tearful eyes we watched him suffer and saw him fading away. We loved him so dearly,But couldn't make him stay. A golden heart stopped beating, Your healing hands put to rest. God broke our hearts to say to us, He only takes the best.


 * Rhymes are difficult to translate. I ran the above paragraph through Babelfish and it spit out the following:


 * Sierra del dios que él conseguía cansado y la curación no era ser. Él puso tan sus brazos alrededor de él y susurró "vivo venida con mí" con los ojos tearful que lo miramos sufrir y lo vio el descolorarse lejos. Lo amamos tan querido, pero no podríamos hacerle estancia. Un corazón de oro paró batir, sus manos curativas puestas para reclinarse. El dios rompió nuestros corazones para decir a nosotros, él toma solamente el mejor.


 * I speak NO Spanish, but my other experiences with Babelfish suggest that this will be a far-from-adequate translation. Perhaps someone kind person, passing by the scene of this language tragedy, will provide it with some life support. Bielle 13:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't speak much Spanish either, but I can see from the first three words there are going to be problems. Sierra del dios doesn't mean "God saw", it means "God's saw". —Angr 13:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I then took the Spanish and fed it back into Babelfish to see what came out if translated back into English. In keeping with the "whispered words" game of children's parties, it is almost gibberish:


 * Mountain range of the God that he obtained tired and the treatment was not to be. It put so his arms around him and whispered "alive coming with me" with the eyes tearful that we watched it to suffer and he saw descolorar itself far it. We loved beloved so, but we could not do stay to him. A gold heart stopped to beat, its curativas hands put to recline. The God broke our hearts to say to us, he takes only the best one.--Bielle 16:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * My Spanish is rather minimal, but out of mercy for this person, I have attempted a translation. My translation is not poetic, and it is probably not even quite accurate, but I think that it would convey the correct meaning to speakers of Spanish.  I am posting this, even though it is not ideal, in the hope that someone will correct me with a better translation:


 * Dios vio que cansasa y que una cura no hubiere.
 * Entonces le abrazó y dijo “Ven y vive conmigo”.
 * Con ojos llorosos le miramos sufrir y apagarse.
 * Le amamos si mucho,
 * Pero no pudimos hacerle permanecer.
 * Un corazón de oro paró de latir.
 * Tus manos curativas lo pusieron a descanso.
 * Dios nos partió los corazones para decirnos,
 * Toma solo los mejores.


 * Marco polo 16:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Symbolism
How does Amy Tan use symbolism in her book, "The Joy Luck Club"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.70.124.98 (talk) 22:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC).


 * For literary questions, please try the Wikipedia Humanities Desk. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 23:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And for homework questions, try the Homework answering desk. Oh wait, there isn't one. Clarityfiend 02:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)