Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 31

= May 31 =

Czech language
I'm curious as to how difficult would it be for an American English speaker (with no knowledge of any other foreign languages) to learn Czech? I found a language difficulty rating, it equated Czech with Finnish and Vietnamese, but that seems inaccurate to me. I'd like insight from someone who's actually learned Czech (preferably from English, but any other Germanic language would suffice), with details as to how one learned, how long it took, etc. I'm really interested in learning it, and would like some insight. Thanks. -Anthonysenn 04:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Czech is a very difficult language -- far, far more difficult than French. It will take you a while just to gain enough experience to have a basic conversation. The main problem is that the vocabulary is so foreign. It's not like a Romance language where you already know half the words. The grammar isn't easy either, but Czechs will cut you some slack in that regard. -- Mwalcoff 23:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Inherently unpleasant words?
If there are inherently funny words, are there inherently unpleasant-sounding words? It was always an old Latin class joke that pulchra (Latin for beautiful) was an incredibly ugly-sounding word. Vultur 04:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd honestly have to say, yes, there are. I personally think "whilst" and "maths" are annoying as all get out, but there are some others that are also ugly. I thought of one, but got up to get a drink, now I can't remember it. Sorry about that. -Anthonysenn 04:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * A friend and I once had a fun day thinking of our favourite words and least favourite words. We didn't like "amicable" because it described such a nice thing but was such a nobbly word. Storeye 05:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * My newest least favorite word is fistula. I've seen it a couple times on the Science Desk recently and I find it an inherently distasteful sounding word; one that has been periodically coming unbidden to my mind, making me shudder everytime it does so. I'm not even sure exactly what it means, not having mustered the courage to click the link yet...but I know I don't like the sound of it. -- Azi Like a Fox 05:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * At the top of my list of ugly-sounding words are usufruct and palimpsest. -- JackofOz 05:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Jack, you'll soon learn to love palimpsest once you've checked out The Archimedes Palimpsest by Reviel Netz and Will Noel. It's a riveting read: it's got serious maths, it's got Classical Greek, it's got a thrilling detective story as our scholars try to trace the history of this ancient and unprepossessing book - what more could anyone look for in their Summer reading?Maid Marion 16:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Smegma. Urgh. --Kurt Shaped Box 05:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey! I like that word. It always makes me think: penis lava. ;) -- Azi Like a Fox 06:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's definitely unpleasant, even if you don't know what it is. If you know, it's even worse ...  JackofOz 07:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to check out sound symbolism. Most words in English beginning with sl- are unpleasant, and also often have something slimy (slowly flowing?) about them: slug, slag, slurry, slut, slog, slob, while slow, and sluice are not so unpleasant, but still have something of the second idea. sn- and sm- seem similar but less strongly so. Words ending in -g (not including -ng) are also often a bit un-nice: bog, shag, snog, snag.. But I think these facts are facts about English (and to some extent closely related languages), rather then truly being inherent. Slobbily yours, Drmaik 06:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry to be extremely rude, but how about cunt? (And by the way, I think "pulchra" is a beautiful word, and it's superlative form "pulcherrima" is even nicer!) Adam Bishop 07:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

and the The 1990’s edition of The Book Of Lists quotes: "AASVOGEL, BROBDINGNAGIAN, CACOPHONOUS, CREPUSCULAR, FRUCTIFY, GARGOYLE, JUKEBOX, KAKKAK, KUMQUAT, QUAHOG." There was also a study into the "most beautiful words.": Rockpock  e  t  08:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This debate sounds familiar! If we are looking for some sources: in 1946 the National Association of Teachers of Speech complied their top 10: "CACOPHONY, CRUNCH, FLATULENT, GRIPE, JAZZ, PHLEGMATIC, PLUMP, PLUTOCRAT, SAP, TREACHERY."
 * Completely irrelevant coincidence: The word Aasvogel - I didn't even know it existed in English - is German for carrion bird, the most commonly specified example being the Aasgeier or Egyptian Vulture. So, in a way, the original poster is the answer to the original post. ---Sluzzelin talk  12:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The word in English comes from Afrikaans, like several other words, and like so many Afrikaans words ultimately from Dutch. So the word is shared by German and Dutch. --Lambiam Talk  20:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's a challenge for someone with a bit of time on their hands (eg. a Wikipedia editor). Compose a paragraph containing all of the unpleasant words people have mentioned so far. -- JackofOz 08:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LarryMac#Jack.27s_Challenge

When someone does something really really bad you need a truely ugly word and journalists reach for heinous, presumably because it rhymes with anus.  meltBanana  16:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I used to think that Delmarva was the ugliest word in the English language. Then someone pointed out to me the area around Texarkana is called ArkLaTex! -- Mwalcoff 21:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading some where that a survey of non-English speakers showed that "diarreah" is the most beautiful word.

The english language is causing me headaches!
Had sleepless nights ad long hours looking through the dictionary lately as I can't remember the single word term for the old saying "It's not what you know but who". Anyone have any ideas?

Cheers,

Deanowills 07:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Deano Wills.


 * Could you mean nepotism? Rockpock  e  t  07:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Or cronyism ? Rockpock  e  t  07:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Or old boy network or jobs for the boys, although they're not single word terms. --Richardrj talkemail 07:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Or being connected or having juice. --Anon, May 31, 08:08 (UTC).
 * Or having "connections". Marco polo 13:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A single word for the old saying is cliché  meltBanana  16:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Er, no, that's a single word for an old saying (roughly speaking). --Anon, June 1, 01:01 (UTC).

Der Wörter?
Die Lehrerin erklärt durch einfache Beispiele der neuen Wörter und die langen Sätze.

Is there anything wrong with this sentence? I'm doubtful about "der Wörter"... :(--61.92.239.192 09:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And rightly so, it has to be accusative "die Wörter". Was erklärt die Lehrerin? Die neuen Wörter und die langen Sätze. --Dapeteばか 11:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's from a book. That may be a typo :P. Thanks.--61.92.239.192 14:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Caribbean
What is the correct pronounciation of Caribbean?
 * You get to choose! You can pronounce it either or, whichever you like better. (If your accent of English has the merry-marry merger, then your second choice is  instead.) —Angr 15:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * merry marry merger, what a felicitous phrase! Merry meet, merry marry, merry part ... &mdash;Tamfang 01:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Kermit's song only works if you rhyme Caribbean with amphibian. 213.48.15.234 09:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dedis
Can someone give me a good definition for "dedis"? I believe it to be an old English or Middle English word.--Doug talk 19:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a context? It doesn't look Old English, but I can imagine it could be a Middle English spelling of deeds. It's not in my CD-ROM version of the OED, though. —Angr 19:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The context would be "Dedis of the Apostles" as in Acts of the Apostles, written as John Wycliffe (Middle English) as he wrote it. Looking for a more defined definition than perhaps just "acts". Deeds sounds correct! The word "actions" perhaps comes into play. Any other guesses?--Doug talk 20:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The OED entry for deed gives the following entry:

†c. Deeds of the Apostles: the Acts of the Apostles. Obs. c1380 WYCLIF Wks. (1880) 195 Peter saiþ in dedis of apostlis..þat to him neiþer was gold ne siluer. 1382 — Acts (title), Heere begynnen the Apostles Dedes. 1533 GAU Richt Vay (1888) 37 In ye xx c. of the dedis of the Apostlis.
 * So, everything said above looks correct. — Gareth Hughes 21:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks for confirmation. Acts of the Apostles is then "Deeds of the Apostles", which makes sense to me.--Doug talk 21:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

French Translations
Hello there! I'm in the process of translating the Benfeld article from the French Wikipedia (it's at User:Bioarchie1234/Translations/Benfeld). It's a simple enough article, but there are two phrases giving me difficulty: "armoires électriques" and "pôles d'emplois". I gather from the context that a "pôle d'emploi" is a "Pole of work", a place where there is a lot of work, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. Does anyone know what they are? Thanks very much. Bioarchie1234 20:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, do you know what "décors alimentaires" are? Surely they're not fake food? (There's apparently a company that specialises in this in Benfeld.) Bioarchie1234 20:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As pôle d'attraction means 'centre of attraction', I'd understand pôles d'emplois as meaning 'employment centres'. — Gareth Hughes 21:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "Employment center" sounds like a job placement office or something; I suggest "center of employment" instead. As to "armoire électrique", that sounds like it ought to be an electrical cabinet, and sure enough, the web site for the company in question says they make cabinets among other electrical supplies. -- Anonymous, 1 juin 2007, 01:07 (UTC).
 * Thanks very much. Actually, thinking about it, "décors alimentaires" could be pretend food. I don't know whether this is relevant in the article though. Thanks again for your help. Bioarchie1234 09:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Armoires électriques is French phrase for "electrical cabinets" or "electrical lockers". Pôle d'emploi is an area with high density of employement (comparatively to the surroundings), airport sites are examples of such areas. As for décors alimentaires, these are edible objects used to decorate cakes, pies, etc. For example, almond paste flowers are kind of décors alimentaires . More examples here (with inedible decorative objects) . AldoSyrt 20:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict) In general, décors alimentaires simply means "food decorations", or more generally "decorations related to food". It can refer to little edible things you can buy for decorating cakes. Although it could conceivably mean other things (such as using food to decorate a window display), the meaning of fake food does not jump to mind. Looking at the webpages of PCB création, for instance this one, the decorations they sell seem to be edible and intended for decorating cakes. I would translate it as "food decoration", using the more idiomatic singular in English. --Lambiam Talk  20:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. The article just needs the English wiki equivalents of the electoral templates and then it'll be finished. Thanks again! --Bioarchie1234 10:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct use of the word "that" in a sentence
Hello, Here's my question:

Which of the following sentences is correct?

A) Confirm the password you entered is correct.

B) Confirm that the password you entered is correct.

Also...do you happen to have an explanation (perhaps an MLA reference) as to why either particular answer is correct or not?

Thanks, michelleleebrown Michelleleebrown 22:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Although the word 'that' is often omitted, the sentence would read better with it in this instance. 'Confirm' is an imperative here. It can take a direct object — e.g. 'Confirm your password'. However, as 'the password is correct' is a complete sentence in itself, it functions as a relative clause and can be introduced into the sentence with a relative pronoun — e.g. 'Confirm that the password is correct'. Now, the 'you entered' bit is further nested relative clause, describing which password is being referenced. It could be introduced by another relative pronoun — e.g. 'Confirm that the password that you entered is correct'. This may seem a little too verbose, so the second that may be omitted. I hope I've got the terminology right, and I hope it makes sense. — Gareth Hughes 22:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Your answer is generally correct, Garzo, except for the terminology: a relative clause is an adjunct to a noun phrase, but there is no such phrase here. so it is not a relative clause. Different terms are used: I favour sentential complement. 'That' is a complementizer, not a relative pronoun.
 * Interestingly 'you entered' is a relative clause, with the relative pronoun 'that' suppressed. 'That' can be a relative pronoun; but in the examples as given, it is neither relative nor a pronoun. --ColinFine 23:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * @ Michelleleebrown: A good answer to this question will come from an unabridged English dictionary. I don't mean to be flippant, but look that up in the dictionary. You'll find several examples. dr.ef.tymac 16:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason to prefer sentence B, although both are correct, can succinctly be expressed as: sentence A is a garden path sentence. --Lambiam Talk  19:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)