Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 November 1

= November 1 =

Jr. and Sr. within an alphabetized list
Here's a quickie. In an alphabetized list, what would come first: Mike Dunleavy, Sr., or Mike Dunleavy, Jr.? J comes before S, of course, but it just doesn't look right to me to list the son before the father. What do style guides recommend? Thanks, Zagalejo ^ ^  ^  03:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If these 2 people happened to be entirely unrelated, would that make a difference? I don't think so.  I'd be surprised if style guides prefer age, relationship or any other considerations over alphabetic order, otherwise it's no longer alphabetic order but some other kind of order, and an order that assumes the readers know what the writers know, which is bound to be a false assumption in the general case.  --  JackofOz 03:38, 1 November 2007

(UTC)
 * Well, looking through some indexes on Google Books, it appears that most list the Jr. before the Sr., although there are some exceptions. Thanks for the reply. Zagalejo ^ ^  ^  04:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Latin word needed
What is the latin word for "crossroad" or "cross" and "road"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.74.61.130 (talk) 16:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A place where three roads meet: trivium. A place where four ways meet: quadrivium.  A more general term for a place where several ways meet in the country: compitum.  Wareh 16:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * See, for example, the article on Compitalia festival. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And for a place where two roads meet, just as we might suspect, there is the word "bivium". There is also "decussis" for the shape of an X. For the individual words "cross" and "road", the most usual word for "road" is "via", which leads to the "-vium" in these compound words. "Cross" would be the adverb "trans" ("across") or as a verb, "transire" ("to go across"), or a large number of other words depending on what you are crossing and how you are crossing it. Our word "cross" ultimately comes from the Latin "crux" which would likely denote a torture instrument to a Roman (as in the Crucifix). Adam Bishop 01:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Surely a place where 2 roads meet is called angulus? Unless they meet head on. jnestorius(talk) 02:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It depends what you mean by two roads. If two roads meet at what we call a fork in the road, that's a trivium, and if they cross each other at what we call a crossroads (or an intersection), that's a quadrivium. I admit I haven't come across a bivium, is that where two ways of different characters meet and end at the same point, so that each could be considered to be the continuation of the other? (I think Wareh's word 'way' is better than 'road', as a via could be narrower than what we think of as a road). Xn4  07:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The trilingual village of Bivio got its name from stabulum bivio (stables at the crossroads). They are in fact two roads forming a Y, dictated by the topography of the local drainage divide (or "watershed"). The main road climbing South from Chur forks off to the Septimer Pass southward and the Julier Pass eastward. These days, the Julier Pass is considered to be the default continuation of the "main road", but at the time Bivio received its name (the first documented mentioning dates back to the 9th century), it might have been the Septimer. More importantly, it doesn't matter: From a traveler's point of view, maybe the prefixes bi-, tri-, etc. can also refer to the number of roads splitting off from "your" road at a certain point, the number of options for continuing your journey (minus turning around). As in the word bifurcation: you're coming from the handle of the fork, and have two or more tines you can choose from. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Then a bivium is (or can be) the same as a trivium? How odd! Xn4  00:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But that's not a bivial distinction. :)  --  JackofOz 03:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Bivium is used very generally by Livy: "Did you march your army straight against those whom you had elected to regard as your enemies? Did you not on the contrary make a roundabout march through winding roads, halting at all the cross-roads in order that in whatever direction Eumenes' brother Attalus should direct his march, you might follow him like a mercenary captain, you, a consul with a Roman army?" (38.45) Wareh 12:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)