Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 April 26

= April 26 =

Wikipedia talk?
Hi. First of all, I don't think this belongs on the help desk because it isn't about using Wikipedia, nor is it about Wikipedia namespace talkpages, but rather about the volcabulary some Wikipedians use, and I don't mean the obvious ones like meatpuppet, smerge, and rvv, nor the ones like IMHO, AFAIK, or FWIW, but rather about the less obvious ones. By that, I mean ones like !vote (with an exclaimation mark), !nosine (with an exclaimation mark and "sine" instead of "sign" [unless "sine" means like sine, cosine, and tangent]), and lede (instead of lead). I know approximately what they mean, but what is the reason for spelling them this way, and how are they different from vote, no sign, and lead? Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 00:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like to add WHAAOE – it's like an in-joke. When I chased it online only what looked like old typesetting tests came up. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't really help you with "sine" and the related terminology. The expression "!vote" is derived from the use of the exclamation point to mean "not" (see here); it's a handy way to refer to a user's contribution to an Articles for Deletion or similar discussion, since such a contribution is not supposed to be a mere vote, but there's no particular concise way to refer to it, hence the shorthand for "not-vote." "Lede" is the spelling journalists use to refer to the opening "graf" (i.e., paragraph) of an article, which is supposed to give the essential information that the article will elaborate on. I see "lede" and "lead" being used with about equal frequency on Wikipedia. Deor (talk) 00:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * As for !nosine!, see User:Sinebot. Note that the name is a pun on "sign" and "sine". --Anon, 01:09 UTC, April 26, 2008.


 * Hi. So does !nosine! mean "I forgot to sign"? Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Or, does it mean "please do not allow sinebot to sign my signature because I don't want it to"? Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh I see, it prevents Sinebot from signing your name. Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I'd just like to add that I assume (although I have at this time no evidence to support my assumption) that the spelling "lede" arose among newspaper personnel to distinguish the word from "lead(ing)", pronounced like the name of the chemical element, which in printer's jargon referred to the lead spacers used to adjust the distance between lines of type. Deor (talk) 02:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that that facetious spelling of "lede" is almost exclusively used by Americans. I'm unconvinced that many British journalists would use it. As for graf, that is a German aristocrat, and I have never seen it used to mean "paragraph" before. Malcolm XIV (talk) 08:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * See, for example, Nut graf. Deor (talk) 12:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * All very well, but that article needs a big fat "globalise" tag on it. British journalists would usually abbreviate paragraph to para or possibly par. Malcolm XIV (talk) 12:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nosine also means "big, ugly noses" in Croatian. I recall that pleased some other editor, as well. SaundersW (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Lede might, indeed be specifically American, and possibly now a bit archaic. The explanation of its etymology above may well be correct, I don't know. But it is definitely correct printer's jargon. (I'm old enough to once have known my way around a California job case, an article I see we don't have. We don't even have job case!) - Jmabel | Talk 20:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now added stubs for those. - Jmabel | Talk 00:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese family history
what is the difference between a koseki and keizu? I have heard the words used in refernce to family history. I saw refence to keizu once recently on the internet but can't find it again24.5.25.12 (talk) 03:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Keizu' is 'genaeology' and is a list of all one's ancestors. 'Koseki' is 'family register' and only includes living relatives, nor does it include extended family.ChokinBako (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC) EDIT - 'Koseki Touhon' is 'family register', and has only parents, spouse and children (whether living or dead). Besides 'koseki touhon, 'I have only heard 'Koseki' used on its own as an abbreviation of this. --ChokinBako (talk) 01:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)