Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 15

= August 15 =

Machines powered by putrilage
If machines are pneumatic if powered by air, what would we call a machine powered by the fizzy vigour of rotting matter?

Ta -- Adambrowne666 (talk) 00:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Disgusting? -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Gasoline (or petrol) powered. Gasoline comes from petroleum which comes from decomposed organic material, so it could be considered to hold the "fizzy vigour of rotting matter". —Angr 09:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fermentic? Zymurgous?  :->  Saintrain (talk) 18:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, all - not sure I get 'Zymurgous'? Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Reversing order of words
What's it called when the order of words in a phrase are reversed in the second part of a phrase? For example: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Thanks,  Reywas92 Talk  01:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Antimetabole - EronTalk 01:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The taxonomy of figures of rhetoric is notoriously mixed up. So, therefore, are some WP articles dealing with them. Anyway, look also at Glossary of rhetorical terms and Figure of speech. Hypallage is relevant, but quite a controversial one. OED has this to say concerning it:
 * "A figure of speech in which there is an interchange of two elements of a proposition, the natural relations of these being reversed. Servius, in commenting on Virg. Æn. iii. 61, explains dare classibus austros as a hypallage for dare classes austris. In Quintilian (viii. vi. 23) the word (written as Greek) has the sense of metonymy, and English authors have sometimes applied it loosely or incorrectly to other variations from natural forms of expression, esp. to the transference of attributes from their proper subjects to others (cf. quot. 1586)."
 * A source cited in OED gives counterchange as an alternative to antimetabole (see the OED entries for both of these terms). WP appears not to mention counterchange anywhere in the relevant sense.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoN oetica! T– 09:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Smack verses slap - the same or a little different
In writing a story, I was debating on describing something as a smack or a slap - but when I looked them up they're pretty much the same meaning. Are they? I would think there would be some different, rather than both being a sharp blow. Perhaps a smack meaning a slap wherein one uses one's muscles. (A woman, for instance, in olden times - and maybe even now - might slap the face of a man getting fresh with her, would wouldn't really put any force behind it.) Would that be right, or are they really used interchangeably? (And, if a smack is intended to be a harder slap, how does one determine - i.e.: is a "hard slap" equal to a "light smack"?) I've read a really light slap called a "fwap" but I'm sure that's nto really a word; really just a descriptive sound. (Onomontopeia?)209.244.187.155 (talk) 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the OED A smack is "A sounding blow delivered with the flat of the hand or something having a flat surface; a slap," and a slap is "A smart blow, esp. one given with the open hand, or with something having a flat surface; a smack; an impact of this nature." In short the answer to your question is no difference.  The only major differnce it seems is that a slap is usually but not always with the flat of the hand while a smack is with the flat.  Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Even the adjectives - "sounding" blow versus a "smart" blow - seem pretty similar; after all, a smack will also smart/sting. Although, the "sounding" part of the smack could imply it's much more audible. Well, anyway, I guess I can just use them pretty interchangeably; and if I want to describe it as more or less, use "light," "medium," or "hard." (Or, as I said for a really light one, "fwap," which is more the sound.)209.244.187.155 (talk) 16:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * When someone deserves a "smack upside the head" a "slap" (upside the head or not) just wont do. -hydnjo talk 02:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What does "upside" mean in that context? DuncanHill (talk) 02:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * From the OED (1989):"5. quasi-adv. (or prep.): upside (one's) head, knot, (of a blow) on the head; esp. to go upside (someone's) head, etc., to strike on the head; to attack or fight. Chiefly U.S. Blacks’." Algebraist 11:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A smack is a firmer blow than a slap. I have the image of the hand being slightly cupped and the fingers held firmly together and the wrist also held firm with a smack, whereas a slap is simply a blow with an open hand. The fingers and wrist may be lax—in fact, if they weren't lax, I wouldn't call it a slap. kwami (talk) 00:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Word for those rhymes where you clap your hands and your partner's whie saying them?
Is there a word for the above? I spoke to a few youth in our youth group and they'd never heard a name for it. One college student then called it a "patty cake" - but I find it hard to call it such a juvenile name, though I guess it's possible. I used to call it a "hand clapping rhyming thingie" till I coined a word some of the youth like - "rhymeclapper." Does anyone have another idea? Do others call it "patty cake" even if the kids doing it are preteens or teens?Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's called a clapping game, of which patty-cake or pat-a-cake is one of the most well-known. - EronTalk 14:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh my sainted aunt! All these years I thought only South Korea had these sort of games. (Korea has one clapping game. OK, maybe two.) I'm truly amazed to see how these games are played all over the world. --Kjoonlee 16:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I spent eleven years working with Japanese kids, and I found that they play it, too. 'Patty Cake' is the only English name I know for it, but I have no idea what the Japanese name is. Anyway, what is the problem with calling a juvenile game by a juvenile name?--ChokinBako (talk) 18:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * the problem is if you're not doing Patty Cake but some other rhyme. Patty Cake maybe, to the OP, be seen as specifically a rhyme for children.209.244.30.221 (talk) 02:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Automized
The first paragraph of the article Volition (psychology) uses the term "automized". Is that a word, and if so how long has it been in use?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 15:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not in the 1983 Chambers Dictionary, and it's not in the big 1987 OED. I suspect it is one of those words made up by psychologists to disguise the fact that they are still groping in the dark. DuncanHill (talk) 15:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not in the online subscription edition of OED either. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is automatize which means "To make or render automatic or automatically controlled; to introduce automation" Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 15:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A far better word than automate. OtherDave (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks to all. I considered automate to replace automize and did not like it, though I could not quite figure why I didn't. On further reflection, I think automate has a connotation of a subject automating "something else", rather than an internal activity whereby part of the subject's own internal process is made automatic.  Does this make sense to anyone else?


 * Automatize seems to be a good word for the context. (Maybe automize was a misspelling of automatize.)  Wanderer57 (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sports Fans
Where does the catch phrase "Sports Fans" come from? --Slashme (talk) 17:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Fan" as a sports follower dates at least to 1889 in the U.S., though opinions vary on whether the source is fanatic or fancy, as discussed in fan (person). I don't know that I'd call it a catch phrase, which tends to be more slogan-y or meme-like ("sorry about that, chief" or "you are the weakest link," for example). — OtherDave (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OED lists it as an abbrivation for fanatic. While modern use of is usually dated from a 1889 reference to Kansas City baseball, it had been used a few times before, possibly as earily as the late 17th century.  Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 18:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect the OP may not be asking about the literal phrase "sports fan" (a fan of a sport or sports in general) but rather about the practice of addressing a group of people as "sports fans" even when sports are not an issue. As in "All right, sports fans, let's get these suitcases packed so we don't miss our plane". I suppose it's just extended from sports announcers addressing their audience as "sports fans". —Angr 19:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is the interpretation that I'm after. I have a feeling that there must have been someone influential who used this phrase a lot, but I can't find a reference to it. --Slashme (talk) 10:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never heard that usage. May I ask where you've encountered it? Algebraist 11:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't say, exactly. Sometimes on TV sitcoms, I think. --Slashme (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In the US? Algebraist 21:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the sitcoms were made in the US, but I saw them in South Africa thanks to Coca-Colanization. --Slashme (talk) 11:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've heard it (in American English) too, though I can't give you a specific instance. People in Stephen King novels tend to talk that way. —Angr 06:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Here are some examples:


 * Steady-cam forum
 * WoW forum
 * Democratic Underground, discussing music
 * Thanks all. Algebraist 12:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)