Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 26

= August 26 =

Japanese music venue website
Here is a website in Japanese which I think is for a music venue or nightclub. Could someone please confirm this, and also tell me which city it is in and how its name could be transliterated. Many thanks, --Richardrj talkemail 09:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Richard. It is indeed a music venue for performances. It's in Shibuya, Tokyo. Just click on the 'toiawase' button, and it tells you that in English. On the front page it doesn't say where it is (it just says 'Koendori', which is the name of the company, but may be named after the actual street it is on?), but the '03' telephone number gives away the fact it is in Tokyo.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks very much. --Richardrj talkemail 11:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You can find the venue on the basement floor of Tokyo Yamate Church on Koendori/Park Street. The name of the venue is Koen dōri Classics and the address is 渋谷区宇田川町 19-5/19-5, Udagawacho, Shibuya, Tokyo. Oda Mari (talk) 16:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Cheers, Mari. I think he is doing it for a translation. I don't really think he wants to actually visit the place. But, thanks, anyway!--ChokinBako (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, a translation. But every little nugget of information helps, and maybe I'll get to visit it one day! --Richardrj talkemail 10:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Right, well, keep the questions coming. Mari and I will help you out (at only a 10% commission - each!). ChokinBako (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Notting Hill Carnival
Why is the Notting Hill Carnival often referred to without the "the"? There are several examples of such usage in our article e.g. "Carnival began in January 1959", "Carnival has been seen as a peaceful event". And this usage is also widespread in reports on the carnival in other news media. --Richardrj talkemail 10:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing this is because Carnival can refer to a seasonal festival in much the same way as "Lent", or "Christmas" but can also mean just the event: "The Notting Hill Carnival". Fribbler (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Whenever it is capitalized in the article, it is used as a name (one instance excepted). When a direct article is used, the initial is usually lower case. Bessel Dekker (talk) 02:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Null and void
When you use the term "null and void" ... is that merely a redundancy? Or does the "null" part mean something different than the "void" part? What exactly do the two parts mean when considered separately? What exactly do the two parts mean when taken together? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC))


 * It's a redundancy, which is common with older legal phrases. They mean that the thing referred to has no legal validity.  Each word by itself also means that (as well as having other meanings); "null" is rarely used alone in this sense, but "void" sometimes is (e.g., in the phrase "void and not merely voidable," which may give you some additional sense of the meaning.  John M Baker (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. So, John M Baker ... are you saying that the following three sentences are saying the exact same thing ... and that they are pretty much interchangeable?
 * That contract is null.
 * That contract is void.
 * That contract is null and void.
 * Thanks.  (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC))
 * According to Void (law), the first definition of "void" in Black's Law Dictionary is "null". (That'll be $50, please. Oh, wait. There was no contract.) Clarityfiend (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, those three sentences all say the same, although in practice nobody says "That contract is null." John M Baker (talk) 01:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You do sometimes hear "the contract is void", or "the contract has been voided"; but never "the contract is null" (I can't even remember hearing "the contract has been nullified"). Null by itself is used in things like null set and aleph null.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Please translate the following text from English to Latin
Here is the text:

After Darius had returned to Asia his friends urged him to conquer the Greeks. He therefore prepared a fleet and an army and sent ambassadors to Athens to say that he was very angry because they had helped his enemies when they marched into his territory. The Athenians knew that they must resist him in order to preserve their freedom, and so bravely did they fight that even today men praise their victory. The poet Aeschylus, who was in the Athenian battle line, wished verses to be written on his tomb in which, although he said nothing about the many plays which he had composed, he declared that the Medes well knew the courage which he then displayed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlongcena (talk • contribs) 16:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This sounds more like a homework assignment, rather than the usual case of someone asking us to translate a short motto or slogan... AnonMoos (talk) 18:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I was hoping for a better punchline. -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you want comedy, you need to wait for the ten-year-later rematch and the Hollywood version. Algebraist 19:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if this was homework; he e-mailed me to help with a translation before I pointed him here. I thought it sounded like an exercise from Wheelock or something but I didn't find anything online, except the same question posted to Yahoo and, oddly, a gaming website. So, homework? I'm not sure. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That gaming website is a source for some other unlikely questions, notably Am i a possible reincarnation of Alexander The Great? If this is not a homework assignment, then what could it be? I am not sure. Bessel Dekker (talk) 01:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What a bunch of meanies. Here's the first sentence:  Afteray Ariusday adhay eturnedray otay Asiaay ishay iendsfray urgeday imhay otay onquercay ethay Eeksgray.  — OtherDave (talk) 01:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One would not like to carp, but while the morphology of this translation is impeccable, the syntax seems somewhat shaky. Bessel Dekker (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's Iddlemay Ulgatevay. — OtherDave (talk) 15:30, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's someone else's translation, which doesn't look too bad: "Regressus Darius in Asiam ita ab amicis de Graecis superandis admonebatur ut classem exercitumque instrueret mitteretque ad Athenienses legatos, qui nuntiarent ipsum vehementer iratum esse quod auxilium hostibus in eius fines ruentibus adtulerant. Athenienses autem ob libertatem obtinendam sibi opus esse isti resistere cvm intellexerint, tam fortiter repugnaverunt ut etiam nunc eorum victoriam ab omnibus laudatur. Aeschylus, poeta ille, luctatus in Atheniense acie, optavit quidem ut versibus in tumulo inscribendis, quamvis de multis fabulis suis taceret, Persicos virtutem quam tum exhibuerat certo sciisse declararet." Our Latinists here can probably suggest improvements to it. Strawless (talk) 17:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record, the translation I sent originally was: Cum Darius ad Asiam redivisset, amici hortati sunt ut Graecos vinceret. Classem igitur exercitumque ornavit et legatos ad Athenas misit se iratiorem propter suis hostibus in fines ingressis auxilium. Athenienses autem, cum ei repugnandum esse ut libertatem servarent scieverint, tam fortiter pugnaverunt ut usque ad hunc diem victoria ab omnibus laudatur. Aeschylus quidem poeta, qui in Atheniense acie pugnavit, in sepulcrum scriberi voluit versus in quibus, quamvis de multis fabulis a se factis taceret, Medos certo scivisse iam virum fortem se praebuisse declaravit. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

information on a quote
I am looking for information on this quote...


 * "He who doesn't lose his wits over certain things has no wits to lose" Gotthold Ephriam Lessing (1729-1781)

Any help would be appreciated 71.51.95.240 (talk) 20:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.51.95.240 (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, we have an article on Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (note the spelling of the middle name), if that helps. -Elmer Clark (talk) 19:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * i'm looking for information on the quote itself. Its history, how it has been used, ect. Thanks though.  71.51.95.240 (talk) 20:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Original quotation: "Wer über gewisse Dinge den Verstand nicht verlieret, der hat keinen zu verlieren." Source: Emilia Galotti, G. E. Lessing.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

why is eleanor roosevelt credited with this quote
"Beautiful young people are accidents of nature. Beautiful old people are works of art." the original author is not known but it is often credited to eleanor roosevelt. why? 71.51.95.240 (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Possibly because sources tend to repeat each other? However, here it gives another author: Marjorie Barstow Breenbie. Some might prefer this  page. Bessel Dekker (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That doesn't sound like Eleanor Roosevelt to me, too precious. Xn4  ( talk ) 09:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Fake or Fiction
What does the phrase "Fake or Fiction" mean? How and in what context is it proper to use this phrase? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.140.123 (talk) 21:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Never heard it. "Fact or fiction" is the standard expression.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with Jack. As a phrase, "fact or fiction" is often used to highlight some purportedly unusual or hard-to-believe statement -- e.g.:
 * The clock tower at the University of Detroit is actually a smokestack.
 * President Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln; President Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy.
 * The famous plays were not written by William Shakespeare, but by another man with the same name.
 * -- OtherDave (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC), who made that last 'fact' up


 * I suppose one could contrive a context in which fake and fiction were differentiated, and then ask which is which. All fakes are a kind of fiction, but not all examples of fiction are fakes per se.  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Presumably the person using this is differentiating the two in this way: I would take 'fake' to mean that thing was deliberately trying to make someone believe it is 'real' (i.e. fake gold wants to appear as if real gold) whereas 'fiction' is open and honest about being what it is. Therefore fake or fiction would mean - deliberately misleading or honest...Maybe that's what they mean? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Or maybe it's a joke, like "threat or menace?" And not to derail the thread, but does anyone know where that one originated? -- BenRG (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)