Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 8

= August 8 =

mandarin aspiration
Hi. In what regional variation of Mandarin is the aspiration strongly realised as /R/ or /X/ instead of /h/?

eg

/tʰuɕukwan/ --> /tXuɕukwan/

A native speaker of Chinese who is helping me learn sometimes speaks like this. I'm wondering how widespread is this pronunciation?

Thanks

- Ian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duomillia (talk • contribs) 04:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Does s/he speak this way when not teaching you? I'm just wondering if it's pedagogic exaggeration. kwami (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm, in Korean is realized as  quite often. I wonder if it's just the back vowel influencing the obstruent. --Kjoonlee 01:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * " in Korean is realized as "? So, the vowel completely disappears (or is realized as x:)? Wouldn't that be the obstruent influencing the back vowel?--ChokinBako (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the doesn't change into  except before back vowels. The back vowel becomes devoiced. --Kjoonlee 02:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand /tʰuɕukwan/ --> /tXuɕukwan/  and can't find any translation. What word or character relates to the example? DOR (HK) (talk) 01:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe it's 図書館, 'tushuguan', 'library'. ChokinBako (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's Japanese (図 is a Kanji, not found in either simplified or traditional Chinese). In Chinese it's 图书馆/圖書館. --antilivedT 11:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I knew it was Japanese. I just couldn't get my PC to let me type 圖書館. I was hoping someone would figure it out, as you did.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've heard it before, mostly from northern Chinese (Beijing area). It's a free variation phonological alternation. The sound you're hearing is an fricative release. It's actually a phonological feature in some languages - for example Lakhota. Steewi (talk) 12:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason I didn't answer the OP's original question was because it sort of threw me a bit. I lived in Tianjin, near Beijing, and I heard it all the time, along with the so-called standard version, and at the time thought nothing of it, or at least that they were interchangeable. Is it different in other areas? ChokinBako (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's less heard as you go further south, but quite acceptable. It's also more prevalent in men than women. Steewi (talk) 04:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Biblical quotation
Where does this saying come from Thank you:- What has God Wrought? Thank you Shirley Briggs  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.165.254 (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Numbers 23:23 (King James Version), and it's "What hath God wrought?" Deor (talk) 12:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Quoting from the bible is one way to telegraph your message. OtherDave (talk) 14:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And misquoting, even Morse-so. :-) StuRat (talk) 15:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Dash it all, Stu. Dot is not nice! Express some reMorse. Wanderer57 (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

How can we be sure that the original should be translated as "hath," rather than "has" ? DOR (HK) (talk) 01:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see the relevance of your question. The OP was seeking the origin of an English sentence—familiar from Marconi's Morse's use of it—not an elucidation of the original Hebrew, and Marconi Morse used the KJV version. (The heading of this section was my addition, since the OP had just appended the question to the section above.) You're quite welcome to use "has" if you want, but I'd advise replacing the obsolete participle of work as well. Deor (talk) 02:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Deor; this use of "wrought" is ironic. OtherDave (talk) 11:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * (droll, very droll). But getting serious for a moment, are you fine fellows suggesting it would be "What God has worked"?  That sounds rather odd to my antipodean ears.  I'd more readily accept "What God has done", which involves replacing the verb altogether. --  JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Authorized King James Version was published in 1611, and its eponym was King James I of England, who ruled in England from 1603 to 1625. His predecessor was Queen Elizabeth I of England, who reigned from 1558 to 1603, and he was contemporaneous with William Shakespeare, who lived from 1564 to 1616.  Shakespeare's writings and the Authorized King James Version were produced during the period of Early Modern English, when some inflected forms of verbs differed from the forms used in 2008.


 * According to the Bible (Numbers chapters 22, 23, and 24), when the Israelites were about to enter the Promised Land, Balak king of Moab asked Balaam to curse them, but he blessed them instead and on more than one occasion. On one of those occasions, the question under discussion is what he said that people would ask concerning the loyal God of the faithful Israelites.


 * Twelve English versions of this verse are at Numbers 23:23 "For there is no omen against Jacob, Nor is there; and two Greek versions, nine Hebrew versions, and one Latin version are at Numbers 23:23 Greek, Hebrew, Latin.


 * The article "American Morse code" (under History) says the following: "The first public message 'What hath God wrought' was sent on May 24, 1844, by Morse in Washington to Alfred Vail at the B&O Railroad 'outer depot' (now the B&O railroad museum) in Baltimore, Maryland."


 * -- Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The message was actually "What hath God wrought?", as can be seen from this photo.  Judging from http://bible.cc/numbers/23-23.htm, the phrase in the Bible is an exclamation rather than a question.  --Bowlhover (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing that out; I overlooked the distinction. However, now I am puzzled by what looks like a colon at the end of the verse in Hebrew (http://biblos.com/numbers/23-23.htm), whereas the article on Hebrew punctuation seems to indicate that such a character is the equivalent of a period.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensuality?
Does the word "consensuality" exist? If not, could someone offer me a substitute in the following sentence: "When this is repeated by other sources, it gives an impression of consensuality."

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A guess: consensus? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * an adjective for the giving of consent if you ask meMY♥IN chile 21:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * For the presciptionists, Merriam-Webster's Third International Dictionary Unabridged does not recognize consensuality as a valid word. As for an alternative, go with consensus as suggested by Zain Ebrahim, because etymologically, "consenual" is just the Latin consenus plus the English morpheme -al.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've used it as a word, without giving much thought to whether it 'exists' or not, but I don' think it's a commonly used word. When I've used it, it was referring to Myheartinchile's definition. Steewi (talk) 12:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

what's this say? Faroese translation
Friðarbogin[1] var fyrsta føroyska felagið, ið tókst við evnum viðvíkjandi samkyndum og tvíkyndum í Føroyum. Friðarbogin var settur á stovn 17. oktober 2003. Aðalendamálið hjá felagnum var at arbeiða fyri politiskari, mentanarligari og sosialari javnvág fyri sam- og tvíkynd í Føroyum. Upprunanavnið hjá felagnum var Ælabogin, men broyttist til Friðarbogin á fyrsta aðalfundinum hjá felagnum í januar 2004.

Í november 2004 var Friðarbogin við til at stovna ANSO - sum er felagsskapurin hjá STT studentafeløgum í Norðurlondum. [2] [3]

22-27. august 2005 var fyrsta ráðstevnan hjá ANSO, Canaries in the Coal Mines, hildin í Tórshavn. Henda norðurlendska LGBT[4] ráðstevnan var fyriskipað av ANSO, Friðarboganum og felagnum Bogin. Ráðstevnan endaði við fyrstu skrúðgonguni fyri STT (sam-, tví- og transkynd) í Føroyum. Røðarar til ráðstevnuna vóru millum annað: Judith Halberstam (US) [5], Jens Rydström (SE) [6], David Megathlin (US) [7], Arthur Thiry (SE) [8], Britta Swenson (SE) og Don Kulic (SE)[9].

17-19. august 2007 fekk Friðarbogin vitjan av ANSO, STT ráðstevnan (sam-, tví- og transkynd) var fyriskipað undir heitinum "Hevur kærleiki kyn?" Tað er Friðarbogin saman við ANSO, ið skipar fyri festivalinum.

[rætta] Dagfestingar hjá Friðarboganum


 * 17. oktober 2003 : Friðarbogin stovnsettur
 * 22. august 2005 : ráðstevnan "Canaries in the Coal Mines" sett
 * 27. august 2005 : fyrsta skrúðgongan, Føroya Pride 2005
 * 15. desember 2007 : §266b [10]
 * 17. august 2007 : ráðstevnan "Hevur kærleiki kyn?" sett
 * 18. august 2007 : næsta skrúðgongan, Føroya Pride 2007
 * 2008 : Føroya Pride 2008

thanksMY♥IN chile 20:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Friðarbogin was the first Faroese association to deal with issues regarding homosexual and bisexual people in the Faroe Islands. Friðarbogin was established October 17, 2003. The main goal of the association was to work for political, educational and social equality for homosexual and bisexual people in the Faroe Islands. The original name of the association was Ælabogin [The Rainbow] but it was changed to Friðarbogin [The Peacebow] at the first general assembly of the association in January 2004." etc. etc. Do you really need the whole thing? Haukur (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Italian words for money: "denaro" or "soldi"
Is any of them more likely to be used in certain situations than the other? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, for what it's worth, on Italian wikipedia denaro directs you to the Italian version of the English wikipedia's article on "money," and soldi to "currency." This Italian dictionary doesn't help, defining soldi as "money, wealth." FWIW I used a "Learn Italian while you drive" program (not saying it did any good), and in the tourism phrases it had me repeat, they always used soldi to mean "money" and never denaro--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think denaro is not so used any more. It is the kind of word you would expect only from your grandmother. I don't remember ever hearing denaro while talking to young people. --Lgriot (talk) 02:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Denaro and soldi both translate as money. Soldi is the common word used in general speech. Soldi is usually used in the plural (soldo - is only used in the sense of  "spare me a dime" - reather than "give me your money"). Denaro usually used in the singular, is a more official word - used in  finance etc. (The plural "denari" refers to the ancient Roman coinage, from which the word derives) Giano (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: Before someone asks, "moneta" refers to coinage and bank notes (carta moneta) etc. Giano (talk) 08:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, sorry, I obviously never had much to deal with official documents in Italy. Go with Giano's answer, not mine. --Lgriot (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Italian Wikipedia has an article titled "Denaro" (it:Denaro), which is the second result from my Google search for "denaro" in any language.  It is linked bidirectionally with the English Wikipedia article "Money" (Money).  A search for "soldi" on Italian Wikipedia  is redirected to the article "Valuta" (it:Valuta), which is linked bidirectionally with the English Wikipedia article "Currency" (Currency).


 * My Google search for "denaro" in Italian reported 6,700,000 results, and my Google search for "soldi" in Italian reported 13,700,000 results. See also the Wiktionary article "money" (wikt:money), and the expandable lists of translations; and the Wikizionario article "denaro" (it:wikt:denaro).


 * There is a recent report (Saturday, 9 August, 2008) in Il Messaggero, I trasferimenti di denaro - Il Messaggero (Transfers of Money).
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The origins of "denaro" and "soldi" are explained at Denarius and Solidus (coin) respectively. Historical information is also available from the Online Etymology Dictionary (Online Etymology Dictionary).
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My Google search for "denaro soldi usage" led me to Denaro vs Moneta vs Soldi - WordReference Forums.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Lang may yir lum reek wi ither fowk's coal"
Is the title correctly written for a traditional Scots-Gaelic phrase? I understand that it means something along the lines of "Long may your chimney smoke with other folk's coal" but when would it be used? (Is it congratulatory, a wish for happiness, or wealth, or stability?) What is the correct pronunciation? Thanks for any help you can provide. ៛ Bielle (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not Gaelic, but Scots. I've never heard the full sentence you quote, only the first five words, and there isn't really a standard spelling for Scots (though Scots leid describes one), but it seems to be a reasonable way of writing the sentence. I've no idea when, if ever, it would seriously be used. --ColinFine (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I too have only heard the first five words - it's sometimes used as a toast. At a guess (and I'd stress that it's a guess) I'd say it would be highly appropriate as a salutation when first-footing. Grutness...wha?  01:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd assume that "wi ither fowk's coal" is a humorous expansion, implying that the addressee will be doubly blessed by not having to pay for the coal. (Not that the Scots have a reputation for tightfistedness!) Deor (talk) 01:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think all of the above is right on track. I've heard both versions. The first part is more commonly used in my experience. This may be clear already, but the point of "Lang may yir lum reek" is to wish someone a long and comfortable life.  Wanderer57 (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you all. Someone wants to use it in a wedding toast where the groom is a long way from his Scottish home. I was checking to see if it was appropriate. We will stick with the short version as there is less ambiguity in the greeting. Your help is appreciated. ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You might find a place to use this lesser-known poem by Burns:
 * Ithers seek they ken na what,
 * Features, carriage, and a' that;
 * Gie me love in her I court,
 * Love to love maks a' the sport.


 * Let love sparkle in her e'e;
 * Let her lo'e nae man but me;
 * That's the tocher-gude I prize,
 * There the luver's treasure lies.
 * OtherDave (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

siberian/north russian
what ever happened to the siberian/north russian wikipedia?MY♥IN chile 22:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It was closed because it was determined, I believe by vote on meta wikimedia, that it was a propaganda tool and not a real language. Many of the words used in the language were simply made up by the authors of the wikipedia. Additionally, many of the translations were awful: something about prodigious use of the Russian word for "fuck" in translating Shakespeare works, and the sysops banning anyone who disagreed with their point of view. 71.58.94.162 (talk) 22:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Such matters are determined on http://meta.wikimedia.org/ ; I'm sure there are extensive discussions of the subject there... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Siberian Wikipedia was made up by a crank who invented a "Siberian dialect" of the Russian language. He recruited his classmates to the cause, and they opened a separate wikipedia where they had fun writing pages consisting of Russian swear-words. Can you imagine a separate wikipedia project for English profanities? It was hard to persuade any Russian speaker to take Wikipedia seriously as long as we had a curse-words wikipedia by our side. This shameful page in Wikimedia's history highlights the need to show more restraint when opening new wikipedias in obscure dialects which few people can realistically monitor. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)