Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 December 20

= December 20 =

Misinterpreted words
I enjoy extending my vocabulary so I frequently look unfamiliar expressions up as I stumble upon them. Today, I found niggardly and was amused by the controversies spurred by people mistaking it for nigger. It all reminds of this xkcd. So, what other examples of language usage are there that have given rise to similar incidents? When it comes to familiarity with lesser-used words, I am absolutely not abreast (tihi, just learned today) with native anglophones, so don't hold your contributions back because you think them trivial – I might know less than you would expect. —Bromskloss (talk) 00:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a bad word, but I remember being somewhat startled by finding the word invagination. I had no idea that vagina- was a generic word that could be used in other contexts (small in-foldings). Matt Deres (talk) 00:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I recall a segment on the Man Show where they campaigned to "stop women's suffrage." A lot of people signed their petition because they were thinking it was to stop women's suffering.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  02:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There's also "evaginate" (ugh!) which only yesterday I added to my list of "The Worst Words in the World". -- JackofOz (talk) 04:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Most of the medical words for naughty bits would have meant something very different to the Romans, because they're euphemisms, though I've no idea how old they are in that role. —Tamfang (talk) 20:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Venery. Or perhaps Dihydrogen monoxide.   Little Red Riding Hood  talk  04:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Given all of the controversy surrounding catholic priests, many are surprised to find that the church-owned house they live in is frequently called a "rectory" or that they attended "seminary" to get their position. There are numerous jokes that play on the connection of these words to rectum and semen.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I came across one that cracked me up when debugging a French program. The word "tampon" was used as a variable in the code.  It apparently just means "anything which is inserted" in French, or something like that.  In English, there's also a crampon, which is a mountain climbing tool, not an uncomfortable feminine hygiene product. "Mastication" is another one in English that's always fun. StuRat (talk) 04:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In the computing context, tampon probably means 'buffer'. I was once told that Afghanistan was created as an état-tampon (between Russia and British India). —Tamfang (talk) 20:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There's also the famous non-speech that was apparently apocryphally attributed to George Smathers: Are you aware that Claude Pepper is known all over Washington as a shameless extrovert? Not only that, but this man is reliably reported to practice nepotism with his sister-in-law, and he has a sister who was once a thespian in wicked New York. Worst of all, it is an established fact that Mr. Pepper, before his marriage, habitually practiced celibacy. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Attributed to P. T. Barnum is the method of getting people out of a crowded hall full of interesting critters by putting up a sign saying "This way to the Egress" so that people would be encouraged to go through the door. —Angr 09:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds sneaky, but I didn't quite get what the crowd were supposed to mistake it for. —Bromskloss (talk) 10:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Some rare and exotic animal. It is only one letter away from Egrets, for example. —Angr 10:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oups, I just read it as "a crowded hall" and didn't see the critter part. —Bromskloss (talk) 11:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all contributions so far! —Bromskloss (talk) 10:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Tampon means "buffer" in French. Joeldl (talk) 11:15, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ummm...according to the Encarta dictionary's French>English translation, that meaning is listed as secondary and only in the railroad context. The primary English translations it gives are: plug; stopper; pad, wad; rubber stamp. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, those are appropriate translations in other contexts. But here the word was encountered in the context of computers. I know mémoire tampon means "buffer memory". I suppose that's because it's thought of as a sort of padding. I think there might be other similar computer-related meanings. Joeldl (talk) 12:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an excerpt from an entry at :

Domaine(s) : - informatique mémoire d'ordinateur . 	français . 		.	mémoire tampon n. f. Équivalent(s) English	buffer . Définition : Mémoire utilisée pour le stockage temporaire de données lors du transfert d'informations afin de compenser la différence de débit, de vitesse de traitement ou de synchronisation entre les divers dispositifs d'un ordinateur et ses périphériques. . Sous-entrée(s) : 	.

synonyme(s) tampon n. m.      zone tampon n. f.       mémoire intermédiaire n. f.

. 	Note(s) : La plupart des imprimantes sont pourvues d'une mémoire tampon.

And it offers these as English equivalents:

buffer storage buffer memory intermediate memory

By the way, the French word tampon can also mean "tampon."


 * Thanks for inserting those tampon refs. It's all bloody complicated, isn't it ? StuRat (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

While we're running with the "French" theme, it caused no end of humor in my High School French class that "Douche" was the french word for "Shower", and "phoque" (suspiciously close to "fuck") meant "seal" (the animal). --Jayron32. talk . contribs 01:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * French learners sometimes get into hot water with "idiotisme", which does not mean what it looks like, but "idiom". It means idiocy in Dutch, however .  In Russian, идиотизм (idiotizm) can mean either idiocy or idiom, depending on the context, although they also have идиоматизм (idiomatizm), which means only idiom.  I'm sure there are some English idioms that qualify as "idiotism"s. --  JackofOz (talk) 01:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * EFL students frequently stumble over these dissimilar words hard - hardly, hospital - hospitable, host - hostile, famous - infamous. (Among others, there's a long list.) BE/AE words can also cause all sorts of misunderstandings. I'll always remember my reaction when a British colleague said "I'm going out for a fag."  76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:45, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The last time I heard anyone say that was at a non-smoking gay bar, and I'm still not entirely sure what he was referring to. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Although I'm American, I certainly know what "fag" in British English means. Once a co-worker told me that another co-worker had "gone for a fag". Although I knew what she meant, I still responded, "Well, I certainly know what that's like!" —Angr 20:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any other word in English that has such a bizarre collection of disparate meanings as cigarette, male homosexual, and school-based servant-cum-whipping boy? (Apart from the fact that, in some cases, the last 2 meanings might converge.) --  JackofOz (talk) 21:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Especially if its a cum whipping boy... (speaking of words with double meaning)... --Jayron32. talk . contribs 02:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And don't forget about the "small sticks" def, which leads to the hate-crime sounding action of "tossing a few fags on the fire". StuRat (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've only ever read that (never heard it) as "faggots" of wood, not fags. Faggots are also a type of sausage still sod under that name in the North of England, where they don't go in for euphemism much. -- Actually, have a look at the disambiguation page faggot for a varied list of choices from a Christmas tradition to a metalworking technique!BrainyBabe (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Words confused between languages are false friends. A French teenager once complained to me that her teeth were "sensible" (sensible --> "sensitive", i.e. she had toothache). As for phoque (the animal, same sound as "fuck"), there's a hysterical "lost in translation" video called "Culture in Danger" here. Is there a term for words confused within languages? Of course there are the good old trans-Atlantic differences (trans-Pacific too): JackofOz, don't leave home without your rubber! Words that sound almost like rude words? "Organism" was all very amusing when ten years old, but one moves on....Those who object to "niggardly" do not, to my knowledge, raise their voices against "snigger". Is there a category for words too close in spelling for comfort? The pairing "marital/martial" springs to mind.

Jack asks for words (or homophones, I suppose) with a bizarre collection of meanings. I suspect lots of short Anglo-Saxon words have multiple main denotations that fly in opposite directions, but we are too close to the coal face to see them. Take "coke", for example. A classic example of changing primary meaning was highlighted in the recent tidying up and reprinting of the Enid Blyton series of children's adventure stories. The Five (or the Seven, it may have been) went exploring an abandoned house, as you do, and fell down the coal hole and landed in a pile of coke. Nowadays that would indicate a multi-million pound narcotraficante haul of cocaine; then it was a coal by-product; most young children now might only understand the soft drink. Or what about piles: heaps of stuff, hemorrhoids, or the long girders buildings rest on. Bag: to shoot ("We bagged a brace of pheasant in the first ten minutes"), the result of a shoot (the day's bag), the udder of a cow, and to avoid or dismiss, often from tiredness ("We watched the first show on the disc than bagged the remaining episodes."). BrainyBabe (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I almost forgot about vomitorium which, despite what you might think, is not the place that Roman hedonists went to gorge the food they'd just consumed. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  02:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * surely you mean disgorge? —Tamfang (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Balls of brass
What exactly does this expression mean and where does it come from? From context, I assume it's used to describe someone with a lot of chutzpah and indeed brassy can also be used to describe a outgoing, in-your-face person, but how accurate is that? I hardly ever see brass balls either, it's almost always balls of brass which makes me wonder if there's a specific source for the expression. Matt Deres (talk) 00:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Stateside it's always "brass balls", never the other. I always thought it was just another in a long line of alliterative schoolyard utterances, like "tough titties" or "nimble nuts". The obvious idea behind it is that one's testicles are unbreakable, that no one may "bust" one's "balls", the "balls" metonymically referring to one's manliness. In a similar vein, I heard Jeremy Clarkson claim the other day that the Stig's scrotum had its own small gravitational field. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, you forgot to add "Tommy Toughnuts" and "Billy Breakballs". But yes, it has always been "Brass Balls" here on the Eastern Coast of the US ;) Lazulilasher (talk) 03:44, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In a similar vein, there is the expression "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. -- LarryMac  | Talk  02:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm reminded of the iconic "balls of brass speech" from the film version of Glengarry Glen Ross that Alec Baldwin delivers. The basic idea is that to have your "balls busted" is to be emasculated, i.e. to be removed from the collective "manhood".  If you have balls of brass, you have balls which are immune to being busted, and thus cannot be unseated as a man.  Men who take risks with a huge downside, and frequently succeed, are said to have "balls of brass" because they are unafraid of embarassing failure, especially where that failure would some how show them to be less of a man.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The idea has been taken up with the UK TV show "Balls of Steel" and its spinoff show "Massive Balls of Steel". -- JackofOz (talk) 04:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The "brass" part may come from either the 3rd or 4th definition of brass as given by MW online 3: brazen self-assurance 4: singular or plural in construction a: high-ranking members of the military 76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. Isn't it strange how certain metals get attached to particular idiomatic expressions. You can have a will of iron and nerves of steel, but not the other way round. Me? I just have a heart of gold! Matt Deres (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I have a brain of lead (nothing penetrates it). --  JackofOz (talk) 20:00, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The word "fuck" in 1800's American west..
I've been watching the show Deadwood and noticed that they use the word "fuck" far more than in any other western I've seen before. This has led me to wonder, exactly how common was the word in the old west? Is Deadwood historically accurate in saying "fuck" as often as it does (these are rough and tumble sorts after all) or did it not become that commonly used until later in our history?Jmannseelo (talk) 13:30, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you read our article Fuck? It doesn't discuss the American West of the nineteenth century in particular, but since the word was already well known in the English speaking world before then, there's no special reason to believe it wasn't in widespread use in 1870s South Dakota. —Angr 13:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I vaguely recall an interview with someone from that very show who said that they researched historically accurate profanity but the characters ended up sounding like Yosemite Sam. They decided to go with modern swearage to translate the effect to a modern audience.  So I guess the answer is, no it wasn't used as often as the show presents.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  18:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article Brass monkey (colloquial expression) includes a note about the trend from blasphemies to more sexual epithets "words previously in common use like "bloody" and "damn" (both blasphemies) being largely replaced by obscenities "fucking" and "shit".. So, it's 20th century license. A line that jangled for me was in the movie, the English Patient, someone says, "I can't do this." when historically it was more likely to be "I can't go on like this" or something similar. Is there a word for this kind of glitch even if it's deliberate? Julia Rossi (talk) 08:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Linguistic anachronism? —Angr 16:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no sound research as to the prevalence of words like "fuck" in the 19th century, nor is there likely to be, because the reliable sources are so limited. (It certainly isn't for want of effort on the part of linguists.) It was a word that people in the old West knew and used. As Fred R. Shapiro has shown in his memorably entitled paper, The Politically Correct United States Supreme Court and the Motherfucking Texas Court of Criminal Appeals: Using Legal Databases to Trace the Origins of Words and Quotations, the harshest insult available in Texas in the late 19th century was to call him a mother-fucking son of a bitch. In an earlier case, in Missouri, there was a suit for slander based on the imputation that the defendant had said the plaintiff had fucked a mare. The defendant argued "that the word used to convey the slander, was unknown to the English language, and was not understood by those to whom it was spoken." On appeal, the Missouri Supreme Court ruled against the defendant: "Because the modesty of our lexicographers restrains them from publishing obscene words, or from giving the obscene signification to words that may be used without conveying any obscenity, it does not follow that they are not English words, and not understood by those who hear them." Edgar v. McCutchen, 7 Mo. 768 (Mo. 1846). The court report is notable as the first printed book of any kind in the United States to use the word "fuck." John M Baker (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

phraseology
What does the expression "same as cash" mean, such as in the phrase "90 days same as cash"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.108.150.4 (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It means we'll sell you this item on credit, and if you pay in 90 days, there will be no interest charge--thus no extra cost to you. "Your payment in full within 90 days is the same as a full cash payment now."  --- OtherDave (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

chetedouyi
What does the word chetedouyi mean? I believe it is Arabic. Regards B —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronwyn99 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If it is, it's probably a French-based transcription of an Arabic vernacular dialect word. I would need a little more information to have a realistic chance of correlating it with anything in standard written Arabic... AnonMoos (talk) 22:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

It is in a song sung by Amira that can be accessed by Radioblogclub.com. It is pronounced as if it were butterfly in German.

What does the "LIO" prefix mean in the scientific name of "Pocket Mice"?
Many scientific names of species have prefixes that define a group of animals within a larger group. Thus, among the various mice ("MYS" in classical Greek) the earth-based mice called in English "pocket gophers" are named in the scientific taxonomy Geomys (literally "earth-mice"). In Greek the prefix "Lio" denotes smooth, but in Latin the same prefix means lion-like or leontine. Since Greek and Latin are used indiscriminately in nomenclature, it is impossible to guess what an animal's name with that prefix means. My question is therefore twofold: 1) In the particular case of "LIOMYS", the Mexican Pocket Mouse, does the "Lio" prefix mean smooth or leontine? 2)  In general terms, is there a way to tell which is correct, or does one need specific knoledge for each and every case this prefix is used? Thank you! --Bergeronz (talk) 20:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * A paper from the University of Nebraska State Museum says, "The generic name Liomys is a combination of two Greek words, Lio (plain) and mys (mouse), referring to the absence of the specialized characteristics of Heteromys." I think that nails it for our mice, given the contrast with "hetero-". A search of the Oxford English Dictionary on line for "lio-" yeilds two hits. One sends us to "leio-" where it says "also 'lio-'" and defines it as your "smooth". The other hit goes indeed to "lion", but there it's actually "lío" (note the accent on the "i"), one of a dozen or so "forms". I think that "leo(n)-" is the prefix to look for when things get leonine, not "lio", and I think you can expect "lio-" to mean something like "smooth" as a rule. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ancient Greek had two forms lis (lambda-iota-sigma) -- with masculine grammatical gender and circumflex accent, it's a special shortened version of the word for "lion", while with feminine grammatical gender and acute accent, it's a special shortened version of an adjective meaning "smooth". It's not obvious to me that either one would result in a "lio-" prefix in compound formation.  The more usual form of the adjective is leios Λειος (which I assume is the source of "Lio-" in "Liomys").  The usual form of "lion" in Greek compounding is Leonto-, as in Leontopolis ("Lion City"). AnonMoos (talk) 22:22, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Names of Ruthenian political parties
I would need a little help to check the Russian names are correct and add Cyrillic text at Russian National Autonomous Party, Autonomous Agrarian Union, Carpatho-Russian Labour Party of Small Peasants and Landless and Ruthenian Peasants Party. --Soman (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * With the first one, it currently says: Российская национально-автономния партия. There's no such spelling as "автономния", afaik.  It's unclear whether the middle word is meant to be an attributive noun meaning "national autonomy" or an adjective meaning "nationally autonomous" (whatever that means).  That is, is the party about advocating national autonomy for Russia, or it it claiming to be nationally autonomous itself?
 * In the first case, the Russian word for autonomy is автономия (avtonomiya)
 * In the second case, the word for autonomous (f.) is автономная (avtonomnaya)
 * What we currently have is avtonomniya, which is neither the one nor the other. --  JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The source says the party name was 'Russkaja nacionalno-avtonomnaja partija', so i guess автономная is correct. --Soman (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * While googling "национально-автономная партия" i came across both Руская Национально-Автономная партия and Русская Национально-Автономная Партия. At http://www.vedikz.narod.ru/analytics/rusinskoe_edinstvo.htm I found some other party names in Cyrillic. I reckon that somehow, difference between Русская and Руская is difference between Russian and Rusyn, right? --Soman (talk) 16:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It might be. Руски язик looks to be the Rusyn for "Rusyn language", so the whole title may be in Rusyn for all I know. The standard Russian adjective for Rusyn seems to be Русинский, not Руский.  I can imagine it being colloquially referred to as Руский, but I somehow doubt it would be an official spelling due to the potential for confusion.  It's more likely a typo for Русский.  The possibilities seem to be:
 * a title written in Rusyn about a Rusyn party
 * a title written in Russian about a Rusyn party
 * a title written in Russian about a Russian party (with a typo). --  JackofOz (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Birth registry book
Hi. When my son was born in London ( 1977 ) I went to the local city office to register his birth. A large leather 'log'/ book was brought out and his birth was added to the registry. It was done in 'ink' ( a special pen was used ) and his parents occupations/nationalities were entered. We were American expatriots then, living in London for a period of 5 years and employed by an American bank. I was told or understood at the time that this 'log/book' was called the 'doomsday book' by the Brits. Can you give me any way to confirm this info?

Thank you! GL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.110.102 (talk) 23:38, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I know it's just the Register of Births - I've not heard it referred to as "Doomsday Book" before - we have the Domesday Book, but that is something else. By the way, you should have been given a Birth Certificate for your son. I'll just add that, if I recall correctly, a person born in the United Kingdom in 1977 is automatically a British citizen, regardless of his parents' nationalities, so congratulations to your son, he has won first prize in the lottery of life! DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * First and second. Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader :) - Nunh-huh 00:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect Cecil Rhodes was limiting his congratulations to English people only, Duncan, but Londoners are English so it applies in this case. --  JackofOz (talk) 00:38, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Let me first say I'm in over my head here, being an American. I stayed out of it hoping that a Brit would weigh in with a "Yes, I've heard it called that, too." The Oxford English Dictionary on line seems to indicate that the expression, in the spelling "Domesday Book", is used figuratively. I think the OED is saying that any official book of records might facetiously be called a "Domesday Book" in Dear Old Blighty. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)