Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 February 14

= February 14 =

Compass points N-O-S-W
The cover of Agile Restrospectives shows a compass with the four points labelled N-O-W-S. What language was this compass manufactured for to have those particular compass points? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donald Hosek (talk • contribs) 02:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly German. Nord - Ost - Süd - West. Carom (talk) 02:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It must be German. Just for fun I went to Cardinal directions and opened all the other-languages pages where the language uses the same alphabet as us.  The only other language using those four initials was Ripuarian, which is spoken in the German/Dutch border country and looks to my casual eye like a mixture of those two languages.  In Ripuarian the four directions are Norde, Oste, Wäßßte, and Südde.  (In Dutch they are Noord, Oost, West, and Zuid.)  But I doubt there are a lot of goods being manufactured with labeling in Ripuarian.  --Anonymous, 02:36 UTC, February 14, 2008.


 * I don't have any source for this, but Afrikaans might be another option. South (Suid as in Suid-Afrika) is spelt with an S, and it seems reasonable that the other directions are the same as in, or very similar to, Dutch /Kriko (talk) 16:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Poking around some Afrikaans Wikipedia pages, it looks like that's correct. I always assumed South in Afrikaans started with Z because the ISO 3166 2-letter code (and hence the top-level domain name) for South Africa is za; thanks for straightening me out on that. I suppose they used the Dutch spelling so that Saudi Arabia could have sa. So Afrikaans caan't be ruled out for the compaass. --Anonymous, 21:23 UTC, Februaary 14, 2008.


 * Thaanks for thaat, Aanonymous. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

knuckles
how do u say knuckles in spanish?Boomgaylove (talk) 03:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nudillo (sing), nudillos (plural). I assume you are referring to the joint by which fingers connect with the hand. Pallida  Mors  03:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Or, for the case, any other joint involving finger bones. Pallida  Mors  03:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

thanks guys, now theres an article in spanish for it which i wrote thanks to your help. see it here.Nudillos

frostbite in spanish
how do you say it in spanish. is it congelatio? is there an article for it in spanish? its not linked to. =(Boomgaylove (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nearly. It's congelación. (Great song title for Valentine's day: Frostbite in Spanish.)
 * –&thinsp; Noetica ♬♩&thinsp;Talk 04:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, congelamiento. Here in Argentina this is the most more frequent term, but the DRAE seems to agree with Noetica's choice. :-)  Pallida  Mors  04:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

hay un artículo para frostbite/congelamiento/congelación en español? and also, is that the case for chile too, where its the more commonly used term (congelamiento that is).Boomgaylove (talk) 06:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are referring to the medical condition (tissue frostbite), I couldn't find one. For other issues relating frostbite, see congelación (alimentos) and punto de congelación. Pallida  Mors  17:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Another term is quemadura por frío, lit. "burn by cold". Lantzytalk 00:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

knight in spanish
is it caballero. i was wondering how to say knight. independantly of and also with regards to the title of the film the dark knight. would it be, el caballero oscuro? i think thats it. but on the spanish card deck the 12s 11s and 10s have their own names and what are those? i think thats a differant name and its the one im looking for. you guys are soooo helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 06:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Batman has been labeled El Señor de la Noche and  El Caballero Oscuro in Spanish, according to es:Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. The article on Playing_card states that the three court or face cards in a Spanish deck of cards are as follows: "la sota ("the knave" or jack, numbered 10 and equivalent to the Anglo-French card J), el caballo ("the horse", horseman, knight or cavalier, numbered 11 and used instead of the Anglo-French card Q), and finally el rey ("the king", numbered 12 and equivalent to the Anglo-French card K)." The chess piece knight is called el caballo (and these days it does in fact look like a horse, not like a knight). ---Sluzzelin talk  07:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely you mean numbered 11, 12, and 13? -Elmer Clark (talk) 07:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. The Spanish deck has no 10. (Normally) it has 48 cards at most (12 values instead of 13), but often it skips the 8 and 9 and only consists of 40 cards. ---Sluzzelin talk  07:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The way i was taught to play was to subtract 2 from the 12 11 and 10 and treat the 12 as a 10, the 11 as a 9 and the 10 as an 8, and in the case that the cards came with 8's and 9's which is rare (not kidding) we just throw those cards away, or discard them never to be used.Boomgaylove (talk) 09:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See es:Baraja española, for example. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For future reference, wiktionary is helpful for translations. This way you're less in need of a helpdesk volunteer to answer your translation queries. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * wikitionary? really...i usually find it impossibly hard to navigate it, and i can never seem to find a way of getting on the spanish wiktionary itself. is it just one big multilingual wiktionary? i get lost. and if it is, why do you need approval for new languages.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 09:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems simple enough to me. You look up, say, "knight" and there's a translations part and you look for the Spanish translation.  If it's not there (either the word or the translation), then, well you would need to look elsewhere I suppose.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  15:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary is not one big multilingual dictionary. As with Wikipedia, there are lots of Wiktionaries in lots of languages, and new ones need approval just like new Wikipedias do. However, each language's Wiktionary has the goal of listing every word in every language, with definitions written in the respective "home language". Usually words in the home language get a full definition, while words in other languages just get glossed into the home language. Thus, the English Wiktionary, the French Wiktionary, and the Spanish Wiktionary all have entries for dog, chien, and perro, but English Wiktionary's entry for dog says "An animal, member of the genus Canis (probably descended from the common wolf) that has been domesticated by man for thousands of years; occurs in many breeds", while its entries for chien and perro just say "dog". Likewise, Spanish Wiktionary's entry for perro says "Variedad doméstica del lobo de muchas y diversas razas, compañero del hombre desde tiempos prehistóricos", while its entries for dog and chien just say "perro". —Angr If you've written a quality article... 22:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Declension of German words in English texts
While browsing the encyclopedia, I came across the subheading "Joining the Grünen". Assuming I don't wish to write "joining the Green Party", is this correct in English? Or should it be "Joining die Grünen"? hmmm. What are the rules of inflecting foreign language words in English texts? ---Sluzzelin talk  07:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would go with "Joining die Grünen", with the foreign bit in italics. --Richardrj talkemail 08:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Richard. I just realized that the Grünen example using a definite article actually has nothing to do with declension or inflection in general. I've encountered this problem before though, and I'll post a follow-up example, as soon as my mind allows me to remember. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, I can't quite come up with what I think I wanted, but to give two examples: Der Spiegel includes the definite article in its title, while the Süddeutsche Zeitung doesn't. In German, we'd use declension in both cases, and say: "Ich habe es im Spiegel und in der Süddeutschen Zeitung gelesen." In English, we'd say "I read it in Der Spiegel (not "in the Spiegel") and in the Süddeutsche Zeitung." Is this correct? ---Sluzzelin talk  11:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I've just combed through the Chicago and the MLA, and I don't see where they address this issue. Chicago does go into articles in titles of foreign periodicals, and their advice conforms to what you have there: retain the foreign article for names of periodicals. But periodicals are treated as a special case, it seems. An example from Chicago under Foreign Languages, Titles, Foreign institutions is intended to address italicization and capitalization, but seems to be pertinent here: "He is a member of the Société d'entraide des membres de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur." Note that it's not "member of la Société...". Your Greens present an interesting problem, to my mind. German is close enough to English that the "-en" suggests the plural and "die" is an article even to an English speaker with no knowledge of German, who sees "the somethings" in either rendering. I think that a strict interpretation of Chicago's silence makes it "the Grünen". (Foreign institutions are not italicized unless transliterated.) --Milkbreath (talk) 12:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think your knowledge of German is better than you think. I would not expect English speakers to recognize either of those things, especially not at first glance with die which is an English word of quite a different meaning and part of speech. I would expect some people to arrive at an interpretation of "joining 'a group that wants to kill Mr. Gruning'". Rmhermen (talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, maybe that bit was crap. But the rest is right. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I were editing the text, I would change it to say "Joining the Greens" since that's a perfectly acceptable name for them in English. Otherwise, German words are used in English in the nominative case, as Sluzzelin mentioned, and use the strong form of the adjective even after the English definite article: we say "I read it in Der Spiegel and in the Süddeutsche Zeitung", we'd never say "I read it in Dem Spiegel and in the Süddeutschen Zeitung." Even in German, titles aren't always inflected for case: when asking someone if they had seen Maybe, Maybe Not, I would ask "Hast du Der Bewegte Mann gesehen?" with the title in the nominative, not "Hast du Den Bewegten Mann gesehen?" with the title in the accusative. If I said it in the accusative, it would sound like I was talking about the man himself, rather than the movie. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 22:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks to all of you. I now changed it to "Joining the Greens". ---Sluzzelin talk  06:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

dagger and double dagger in spanish
how do you say those two gramatical symbols in spanish? - these: Dagger (typography).Boomgaylove (talk) 09:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * obelisco. --Agüeybaná 10:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am of the opinion that the direct translations of dagger, daga and doble daga are nowadays more frequent. Pallida  Mors  18:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe (I've never heard of them), but RAE defines daga as something that has nothing to do with typography, while it defines obelisco as Señal que se solía poner en el margen de los libros para anotar una cosa particular. So I think it's best to stick to obelisco. --Agüeybaná 21:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Your opinion deserves due respect. I humbily disagree with your remark, though, on the following bases:
 * The DRAE compiles language developments, but lags considerabily behind the linguistic reality. This definition in particular refers to some past use ("se solía poner") of a typographic symbol. Dagger and double dagger refer to a different practice, that of marking a succession of notes (*, †, ‡,...). Following this line, how could we call the third symbol (‡)? Doble obelisco? Is that terminology evident?
 * There is evidence of the pair daga/doble daga with the intended use explained in the preceding paragraph. To mention a few online references,
 * daga
 * Daga and doble daga.
 * Greetings, Pallida  Mors  23:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

footnote in spanish
how do you say footnote in spanish? i am trying to translate the article for dagger but am having trouble since i cant even say what they are used for.Boomgaylove (talk) 09:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Citas en línea or notas. --Agüeybaná 10:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, nota al pie, or nota al pie de página. Nota is the usual term for a comment outside text body. Pallida  Mors  18:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

what are the symbols for male and female in translating?
i have seen sometimes that when a word like poetizas is translated into english it can be translated as "poets" but will have a symbol in superscript after it which denotes that the word is feminine in the language of origen. what symbols are those. i think its like a slanted cursive-ish f and some round dot for men. anybody know?Boomgaylove (talk) 09:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you thinking of Gender symbol? Sandman30s (talk) 11:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

no, not at all. the female sybol i think is ƒ but im not sure. dont have a clue of the male one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 12:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This page was all I could find that contains a squiggly f (more like a 4) and a circle with a dot. Sandman30s (talk) 14:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That 4-like thing is the astrological symbol for Jupiter, and the circled dot is the Sun. Women are from Venus. Anyway, I don't think any of this is relevant to the original question, which I have no answer for. -- BenRG (talk) 15:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

swimfin in spanish
im translating the article swimfin into spanish, and i used the word my mother always used that is aletas de rana (frog fins) but i'm sure there are others or maybe a more general or encyclopedic term. i'm sure there must be synonyms, do you guys know of any, for redirects or a name change?Boomgaylove (talk) 10:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fin is aleta. Swim fin is aleta de caucho. I'd never heard of aletas de rana before... --Agüeybaná 10:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * When I was a kid we called them pé-de-pato ("duck feet") in Portuguese. :)  --Sean 19:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Japanese help
How do I say the sentence "To become a famous actress is my dream" in Japanese? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 12:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 有名な女優になるのが、わたしの夢です. Yūmeina joyūni narunoga watashino yumedesu. Oda Mari (talk) 17:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Arigato! --124.254.77.148 (talk) 11:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

what's 簡述 in english
i saw this written somewhere strange, and am curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 12:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC) the charicter on the left looks like neighborhood to me, or many houses or gongs with many stacked on top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 12:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Brief description? A rough guess. --Kjoonlee 20:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In Korean, 簡單 means simple and 敍述 means to narrate. Maybe it means something like "simple description." --Kjoonlee 20:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A brief introduction/description. 簡, the first character, originally meant "bamboo book" or the bamboo strips that make up such a book. Its other meaning is "simple/easy". It's not a hieroglyph - the radical on top is "bamboo", indicating the material, while the part underneath means "room" but is pronounced "jian" (in pinyin), indicating the pronunciation. See also, the wiktionary entries. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

stockpile and warfare in spanish
how would you say these in spanish would they be, embodegamiento? and guerrísmo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 14:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Stockpile should be reserva.
 * Warfare simply translates for most cases into guerra. Pallida  Mors  18:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

anything besides guwerra? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomgaylove (talk • contribs) 02:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I can't give you such an answer without some helpful context. Pallida  Mors  02:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

biological warfare?Boomgaylove (talk) 13:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Guerra biológica, guerra bacteriológica, and guerra química are common expressions in relation to this context. See, for instance, guerra química y bacteriológica in the Spanish wikipedia. Pallida  Mors  21:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

how do you differentiate between, the the noun (concept) and the verb (an actual war).?Boomgaylove (talk) 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Cinababi and LALAS - Notable malaysian terms?
I happened to notice these recently created articles yesterday. They appear to be OR opinion pieces with bad sources to me, but I've got virtually no knowledge of Malaysian language or culture. I was hoping for some input on whether or not these terms are actually common and/or notable Malaysian terms before taking them to AfD. Is there hope for these articles to end up being useful with some neutral editing and better sourcing? --Onorem♠Dil 16:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

about cinababi and lalas
i am a malaysian and no, these are not common words. in fact, they are very descriminative words used by younger generations to categorise a certain group or click in society. 'cinababi', literally means, 'chinese are pigs', so it would not be very nice to spread this online or anywhere else. i hope i helped.

Questioners' language skills
See recent Science Desk questions. What is the presumed cause of such atrocious English? "wat" "wen" "i", "when It is", are just a few examples. Is it now considered cool to write this way? Is it just laziness/carelessness? Is it trolling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.172.42 (talk) 20:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that this is largely a generational phenomenon. It is chat-room or instant-messaging shorthand.  This kind of writing cuts keystrokes as much as possible.  I am from an older generation, so I'm not sure, but I think that this kind of writing has an element of "cool" because it is an insider thing.  Partly because this way of writing has gained acceptance, at least within peer groups, I suspect that some younger people see little point in "proper" spelling or grammar.  Marco polo (talk) 21:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the IP of the person using "wat" and "wen" is in India, so in that case it might simply be unfamiliarity with English orthography. Deor (talk) 21:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It has never been the case that 100% of the population had perfect writing skills. Recent generations are unique in that everyone, not just the extraordinarily well-read and well-educated, communicates extensively through writing. Strad (talk) 21:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not always explained by economy of key strokes, though. For example, "it's" is more and more often used in cases where "its" is the correct spelling.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Anything below our own personal standards tends to produce increduilty... I tend to be pretty slap-dash, especially here. But still feel a sense of personal horror to see anyone with worse grammar/spelling than I have. I don't think it's trolling.87.102.114.215 (talk) 22:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's due to a poisonous, evil oozing from the electronic ether, specifically text messaging, text speak, and SMS language.--Eriastrum (talk) 23:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah! Another place to float my lunatic prediction that English will split into a literary form similar to what I'm now using and a vernacular, mutually intelligible in the shallows but not in the depths. --Milkbreath (talk) 23:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a certain degree of prestige in writing with reduced and modified forms - see Leet - but the forms themselves are older. You can see them in graffiti from at least as early as the 1980s, particularly in the formulas "steewi woz ere 1984" and "QZ luvs JY 4 eva n eva" and so on. The forms were there long before SMSs, AIM and so on were popular in the general public. As to why it continues, there's a lot to be said for disidentification. Although the internet isn't as nerdy as it used to be, some people still don't want to identify with the crowd that learns things for fun and so on, and it's shown by looking like they don't have/want/need education. Steewi (talk) 00:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)