Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 February 27

= February 27 =

Plural Letters
This subject has been bugging me for a while - how do you write the plural of letters? I've seen people do it in 4 ways:


 * -My name has many Os.
 * -My name has many "O"s.
 * -My name has many O's.
 * -My name has many "O"'s.

Which one is correct? Or are they all wrong? 206.252.74.48 (talk) 14:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd always go for the first of those options. Some people might prefer option 2. And the use of apostrophe's in plural's is illiterate. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that the apostrophe rule changes for single letters, numbers, and acronyms (and its, oppositely). All four look acceptable to me, although number 4 seems overly punctuated. I would use 1 or 3. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 14:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Don't forget". Apostrophes indicate possessives or the omission of letters (as in it's for it is). They are not used to form plurals. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're mistaken in this case. As The Chicago Manual of Style says, "To avoid confusion, lowercase letters … form the plural with an apostrophe and s." Milkbreath has it right below; italicize the lowercase o and add a roman apostrophe and s. Deor (talk) 16:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Selective quotation on your part. The CMS also says "Capital letters used as words ... form the plural by adding s". The OP, as you will observe, used capital letters, so the apostrophe is redundant and ugly. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 16:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The OP also said, "Or are they all wrong?" There's no reason for the letter to be capitalized, so Milkbreath is still correct. Deor (talk) 17:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What if that makes the statement false? Ophelia Orchid O'Olney has many Os, but no o's. Capital letters are sometimes absolutely necessary. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (Or, of course, you could write Ophelia Orchid O'Olney has many capital Os, but no lower-case Os, and thereby avoid looking like a greengrocer.) 80.254.147.52 (talk) 17:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Mind your Ps and Qs. Or should I say Mind your p's and q's? There will never be a consensus on this.
 * In future, I will continue to write letters-as-words as capitals with no apostrophes, and you will presumably continue to write them in lower-case with apostrophe's (sic). That way, everyone's happy. Except the OP, who remains none the wiser. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (quintuple ec) As are common letters. Is are less common. These letters are capital, but they arguably need apostrophes. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 17:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (Or you could rephrase it to avoid ambiguity, rather than pebbledashing it with apostrophes. The letter A is common. The letter I is less common.) 80.254.147.52 (talk) 17:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can always rephrase a sentence, but that doesn't really offer a solution. If the As/Is example were spoken, how would it be quoted verbatim? "As are common letters", the speaker said. "Is are less common". 199.67.16.60 (talk) 14:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * * sigh* They're all wrong. Your name has many Os, which strikes me as odd. I would think your name had many o's instead. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thirteen more distinct opinions and we'll have all the bases covered. My advice: change your name. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The example phrase refers to my online game tag, "Dr. Nooooooooo", which officially has infinite...o's. The joke being that it is impossible to spell it correctly. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have struggled with this on many occasions, and no matter what you do, someone will think it's incorrect! The only thing to do is to reword things to avoid the situation at all. You could write in this instance: "The letter "o" is repeated frequently in my name." (Although I'm sure that someone will say this sentence is incorrect, too.) This kind of lose/lose situation reminds of similar cases; for example, speaking the word "forte"--no matter how you pronounce it someone will think you are an ignorant twit!--Eriastrum (talk) 17:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What? I've always pronounced it "for-tay", everyone I know pronounces it "for-tay" - including people I would deem quite intelligent. I've also just noticed that nearly everyone I know is a musician.206.252.74.48 (talk) 17:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I should have been more precise (although I suspect 206 knows perfectly well what I meant). I meant "forte" meaning "strong point", which is taken from the French and pronounced as a single syllable, and not as it is in Italian with two syllables (and hence in music meaning loud). The problem is that (in the U.S. anyway), the Italian pronunciation is often used for the word meaning "strong point" and is in fact so prevalent that it is accepted as standard usage (according to Webster's Unabridged on line dictionary).--Eriastrum (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I see, I'll have to remember that in the future. Isn't it the basis of the English word "fort"? Is it pronounced similarly? 206.252.74.48 (talk) 21:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, forte in the sense of strong point is a relatively recent borrowing (I think) from French where it means strong, and it is pronounced pretty much the same way as the English word fort. I think that they all have their ultimate origins in Latin, however.--Eriastrum (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The two-syllable pronunciation doesn't appear to be a USism either. According to Oxford, it is pronounced (ˈfɔːti, ˈfɔːteɪ, formerly fɔːt). Dforest (talk) 09:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's punctuation, and punctuation is variable. If you want to avoid it, and spell out the name of the letter instead, you can say, "My name has many oes."

From Tennyson, the OED quotes,
 * Mouthing out his hollow oes and aes.

However, I doubt many people would recognize that.

If you're gonna use the letter to stand for itself, rather than its name, then it needs to be italicized, in quotes, or followed by an apostrophe, either capitalized or lower case. The OED says,
 * "The pl. appears as Os, O's, os, o's (oes)."

Other dictionaries are similar.

kwami (talk) 09:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Identification of a song
I apologize in advance for asking a question in this manner, but I see no other way. Here --WARNING: Pornographic content-- is a link to a video. I am interested (well, for the purpose of this question) in the song playing in the clip. I am most interested in knowing the title and artist of the song, but I figured it would be best to start at this ref desk looking for the language. Thanks! Tuckerekcut (talk) 23:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Russian to me. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 05:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the answer. How confident are you in this? Are you sure it's not a Western Slavic language? I ask because a Polish friend (who does not speak Polish, but has been around family that does) told me it was reminiscent of Polish or Czech. Nonetheless, thank you much for your opinion. Tuckerekcut (talk) 15:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, if anyone can translate a relatively unique few words of the song, that would be of much help. Perhaps with a few words in order I could more easily search for lyrics, and find the song thus. Tuckerekcut (talk) 15:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Relatively unique" is a pretty tough call for a Language Ref Desk volunteer, but I'll do my best. I have a hearing loss and have a particular difficulty where music is present with words.  Also, the "accent" was quite different from the standard spoken language - which I attribute to the stylistic context.  But with those disclaimers, what I picked up were fragments like "она любила его" (she loved him), "она бежала" (she ran; but it could be a mishearing of "она печала" - she bought), "даже" (even) and "столько" (so much).  Best I can do, sorry.  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yards better than anyone else has been able to do, Jack, thank you very much! Tuckerekcut (talk) 16:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)