Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 14

= July 14 =

Japanese translation
I need help translating these sentences for use in Yūto Tonokawa. He works for Key under Visual Art's (ビジュアルアーツ), and 麻枝さん refers to Jun Maeda.
 * 直接の経緯は、ビジュアルアーツへの応募作が審査の方の目に留まったことです. それまでにも麻枝さんがかつて運営していたサイトでお世話になっていたことがあり、それが元で目を掛けていただいた、ということもあります. ちなみに応募作は原稿用紙６００枚超の、しかも少女が主人公の小説という業界では在り得ないものでした. その後ちゃんと別に正式な応募作を作ってあります.

I feel I understand what is being said, but I'm having trouble forming it into words. By the way, this is a response to this question (which I don't need a translation of): 都乃河さんはどのような経緯でkeyに入られたのでしょうか？

I also need help with this: 麻枝さんに「シナリオライターになろう！」と言われた瞬間でしょうか. This is Tonokawa's response to this question (don't need a translation): 都乃河さんがこの業界で働きたいと思われた理由を教えていただけたらと思います. なにかきっかけがあるんじゃないかなと思ったので.

Last one (different response to second question above): 元々は外注ライターとして麻枝さんの手伝いをする予定だったのですが、急遽ライターが社内に必要とのことで、色々と審査もあり入社することになりました.

Thank you for your help!--  十  八  06:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Q: How did you come to work for Key? A: In my case, I had to catch the attention of the person examining the applications at Visual Arts. I am also greatly indebted to Maeda-san, a former administrator there, who I see as the main reason for my getting hired. My application was a whopping 600 pages long, but there wasn't a market at the time for novels featuring young girls as the protagonists. After that, I filled out a regular application.


 * The translation of the middle question is: Did you immediately tell Maeda-san, "I want to be a scenario writer!"?


 * The translation of the last answer is: While I was originally helping Maeda-san in an outsource writer capacity, I was quickly brought in-house due to the need and my speed as a writer.


 * Hope that helps! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the middle one is:Maybe that was the moment Maeda san told me "Be a scenario writer!". Oda Mari (talk) 06:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The first half of the first is:First of all, my entry caught the attention of the person examining the applications at Visual Arts. Besides I knew Maeda-san through a website he once had and he took a kindly interest in me before that.
 * The last half of the third is:but I was brought in-house due to the quick need after some examination, Oda Mari (talk) 07:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

German einhalb neun means 00:39 or halbneun?
Der Schauspieler Max Schreck vom Schauspielhaus ist am Donnerstag früh um einhalb neun Uhr im Schwabinger Krankenhaus gestorben.

The above quote is from Max Schreck's obituary reproduced here. I am confused by "einhalb" - it is not in my German dictionary. Does einhalb neun mean halbeins und neun Minuten (00:39), or is it another way of expressing halbneun (08:30 or half past eight)? -84user (talk) 13:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My native German speaking co-worker says she's never heard this and doesn't know how to interpret it. She guesses it means the same thing as "halb neun" (i.e. 8:30 / half past eight) but she isn't sure. It may be a Bavarian expression (my co-worker is from Hesse). —Angr 13:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I also asked at the German desk here and they appear to conclude it must be a Bavarian regional form of describing the time in official announcements. They concluded it must be 08:30 (or halb neun as I have heard Germans say it). One reply surmised that halb is the current-day remnant from einhalb (not in my largest dictionary though), in the same way that tausend is the short form for eintasusend. -84user (talk) 18:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This reminds me of the very formal American usage of e.g. "six and one half" instead of "six and a half". Must be all the Bavarian immigrants. jnestorius(talk) 20:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Same answer as above by user:Angr. I am Austrian (native German / Austro-Bavarian speaker) and have never heard of the expression "einhalb X Uhr".  As does Angr, I assume it to mean "halb neun / half past eight".  An RD:regular, user:Ferkelparade, who is a resident of Munich may be able to help.  The obituary note on the actor in the WP article also translates it as 8:30, BTW.  The article in the German WP does not mention the time of death.--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never heard the expression either, at least not in everyday talk and certainly not as a Bavarianism (Bavarian would be "hoibe neine", "einhalb" wouldn't even be easily pronouncable in Bavarian). I think, however, that I've occasionally read the expression, although I cannot pinpoint where and in what sort of texts. It has a slightly old-fashioned ring to it, my gut feeling tells me it was probably more often used in the late 19th/early 20th century (although I don't have any references for that - I think I've occasionally read similar expressions in novels/plays from that time, but I cannot remember where and when). Oh, and I would also read it as meaning "halb neun". -- Ferkelparade &pi; 12:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The German w:de:Wikipedia:Auskunft thread has since grown, but the last reply included Einhalb neun Uhr ist ungebräuchlich (habe ich zum ersten Mal überhaupt gelesen) und veraltet. (ie. Einhalb neun Uhr is rare and outdated ...) Note that einhalb appeared printed in an official announcement and was not spoken. They also linked to another occurrence of "einhalb": Grimm's dictionary. And there is also Jean Bernard's 1942 diary. I should have thought to use Google Scholar - a search restricted to before 1968 finds "einhalb neun Uhr" in 1902 medical archives. It must be very rare usage, because I get zero or one hits for "einhalb *number* Uhr" compared to 40 or so for "halb *number* Uhr". Most of them looked like medical reports. BTW, Cookatoo, I was the one that added the 8:30 to the wikipedia article, after reading the German replies. -84user (talk) 01:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, "halv sex" in Swedish doesn't mean six thirty, but rather five thirty. One explanation I've heard is that halv sex is half-way to six. --Kjoonlee 10:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well yes, as in German. 79.66.54.186 (talk) 11:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In German, at least in the South, things get more complicated, as you can also say "Viertel neun" and "drei Viertel neun", meaning 8:15 and 8:45, respectively. A "Viertel" being a quarter of whatever.  I never use those terms, as I mentally always stumble over the unintuitive illogics of these phrases. Confusionism is my favourite philosophy...  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As to the Swedish phrase "halv sex", I must admit that I may have misinterpreted it and possibly gave an answer which may have puzzled the Scandinavians... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Prononciation of D in French
Hello. I am currently learning French and I have a question. The letter "D" in French sounds more like "J" when in front of the letter I (e.g. Dix), but on IPA they are noted in the same way. Is this a prononciation that only exists in some dialects? Thanks.--Faizaguo 16:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Pronouncing "d" like English "j" (or like French "dj") before "i" is characteristic of Quebec French. AFAIK it's not done anywhere else in the Francophonie. —Angr 18:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * T also becomes ts in front of certain vowels. Not all vowels though, isn't it just /i/ and /y/? In any case, you hear things like "tsu dzi" for "tu dis" in Quebec French. Another quirk of Quebec French is that "un" sounds like "urn". We don't learn to pronounce words like that in French class in English schools, but in French immersion schools they apparently learn to speak with a Quebec accent (at least, all the French immersion students I've ever met speak like that). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

its cause they turn their tongue to the right side of the top of their mouths from where we use it in english and its a slurr (to us).MY♥IN chile 02:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.--Faizag<b style="color:#600">uo</b><b style="color:#000"></b> 08:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

to control for (in scientific studies)
I need to translate "to control for" in the following sentence: "These differences are evident even after initial differences in intelligence are controlled for."

Does any of you know how to translate this into swedish, or an english synonym for "control for" that would make it easier for me to come up with a translation? Thank you! Lova Falk (talk) 17:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If it helps, here's the Swedish article on "Scientific Control"/"Control group": .. Fribbler (talk) 17:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it doesn't help... In this case, there is no control group, but they compare two groups and they find differences. Then they do some statistical calculations to make sure that the initial differences in intelligence are not what has "caused" these differences. I just don't know a good way of saying this in swedish. Lova Falk (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * How about "...in intelligence are taken into account."? Fribbler (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "Initial differences in intelligence" is treated as a confounding variable. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Lova Falk (talk) 05:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Grammar Now!
Hi. Listenning to Democracy Now every day, I repeatedly hear Amy Goodman say: "Our headlines are also available in Spanish, in (?) transcript and in (?) audio form for any radio to take as over 200 are." Vague memories of English grammar tell me it's somehow correct but it just grinds at my ears everytime. Is the "are" at the end correct in a strange sentence? Am I the only one to cringe when hearing it? 190.190.224.115 (talk) 20:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No, you aren't the only one to cringe... I still haven't been able to figure out for sure what it means (and I am a native speaker of English)...  I am fairly sure that ending a sentence with am/is/are can be correct, but as in that sentence it can be awkward if the writer isn't careful.  To my ears, the following would be correct (or at least understandable): "Those apples were wasted as many others were," although I prefer "Those apples were wasted as were many others."  I think that the main issue with the sentence Amy Goodman says is that it isn't at all clear to me what the "200" is referring to, and the sentence is just awkward in general...  200 Radios?  That's my best guess... -- Falconus p  t   c 20:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd guess they mean over 200 headline stories are available, in various formats, as that makes more sense than 200 radios. However, I'd have no way of figuring that out from the mangled sentence shown above. StuRat (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it really refers to the number of radios that broadcast Democracy Now or its headlines. OP. 190.190.224.115 (talk) 22:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't this another case of the "primary verb" -- taking, in this case -- being implied again at the end, to eliminate something that sounds just repetetive? Writer may be trying to avoid "Our headlines are also available ... for any radio to take as over 200 are taking."
 * You could also stick an "already" in there for even more improvement in clarity: "as over 200 are already taking."
 * --Danh, 63.231.161.34 (talk) 00:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ...for any radio station to take, as over 200 are. Yes, it refers to the number of radio stations currently taking Democracy Now headlines.  And yes, it's somewhat awkward.  Jack (Lumber) 01:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that "… as over 200 do" would be more idiomatic. Deor (talk) 01:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"I think you" or "I think that you"?
Which of the following phrases is more grammatically correct?


 * 1) I think you look amazing.
 * 2) I think that you look amazing.

Thanks in advance. --XxCutexXxGirlxX (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Grammatically, they are equally correct, but (in my opinion at least), 1 is more idiomatic and "flows" better. —Angr 20:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite article question
I have a question about indefinite articles. I speak Finnish natively, English fluently, Swedish and German well and French at a basic level. Other than that, I have a basic knowledge of Latin, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. Now, about the indefinite articles. Finnish and Latin don't use articles, the other languages do. The English independent article is "a" or "an". For the other languages, it's "en" or "ett" in Swedish, "ein" or "eine" in German, "un" or "une" in French, and "uno" or "una" in Spanish, Portuguese and Italian (at least I think so). All except the English ones happen to be the same as the word for the numeral 1. Is English really the only language using indefinite articles that has separate words for the indefinite articles and the numeral 1? J I P | Talk 20:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Etymologically, 'a' and 'one' both derive from 'an', so English is less exceptional; given that the difference between article and numeral is often a matter of stress, one might argue that written English is just reflecting the common pronunciation difference better than other languages. Sinhalese apparently has an indefinite article distinct from the numeral one. jnestorius(talk) 21:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oooah, as do 91 languages on this cool map jnestorius(talk) 21:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In Dutch, the indefinite article is een [ən] and the numeral "one" is één [e:n]. As in English, the indef. art. is etymologically derived from the number one, but is phonologically reduced. —Angr 21:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I notice that map contradicts JIP's claim that the indefinite article is the same as the word for "one" in Swedish. —Angr 21:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The methodology states:
 * If the only difference in a language is one of stress, then the language is treated as a language in which the numeral for ‘one’ is used as an indefinite article. In some languages, there are additional phonological differences between the numeral and the indefinite article. For example, in Dutch, the numeral een is pronounced with a full vowel [en], while the indefinite article is pronounced with a reduced vowel [ən]. While it is presumably the case that this was originally a single morpheme, which underwent greater phonetic reduction in certain contexts, it is assumed here that this difference has become lexicalized, so Dutch is treated here as a language in which the numeral and indefinite article are distinct.
 * The articles en, ett are the same as the numerals in written Swedish, so my guess would be that in speech the final consonant can be dropped for the article. Or something. jnestorius(talk) 22:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * English also has a difference in grammar between one and a(n) in addition to pronunciation: the one apple that I didnt eat vs. *the an apple that I didnt eat. A determiner + numeral sequence (which is definite) is allowed whereas a (central) determiner + (central) determiner sequence is ungrammatical. So, it's not just phonological difference. – ishwar  (speak)  22:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting point. In principle articles and numerals have different grammatical functions regardless of whether their forms are identical or not; but in French whereas you can say les trois choses, mes deux amours, you can't say *l'un chose, *mon un amour; you would need to use seule, unique, etc. So here's a supplementary question: is there any language with an indefinite article identical to the numeral one where the numeral one can be used in all situations where numerals greater than one can be used?  jnestorius(talk) 08:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble parsing your question, but in German you can say die eine Sache (the one thing), der eine Apfel (the one apple) with the number "one" having (abstracting away from inflectional endings) the same form as the indefinite article. —Angr 08:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)