Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 20

= July 20 =

non-jargon word
I have tried several thersaurses (sp?) including on-line. No luck. Can anyone give me another word (or short phrase)for "maladaptive" that is non-jargon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.154.23.125 (talk) 02:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * inadequately adjusted Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * AKA maladjusted ? StuRat (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * When you have this type of trouble with a compound or complex word break it down into its parts. Mal- (prefix) and adaptive. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 02:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How about dysfunctional? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 06:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

german definition
I am trying to find the meaning to the following... "Einheit rer Sinn- der beste gewinn" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.223.18.217 (talk) 02:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I assume this is supposed to say "Einheit der Sinn — der beste Gewinn," which means something like "The unity of sense [sense as in the meaning of something] is the greatest prize/profit." Strad (talk) 04:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite - assuming it is really "Einheit der Sinn", it rather means "Unity is the meaning/sense". "The unity of sense" would be "Einheit des Sinns". -- Ferkelparade &pi; 14:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

anti-Islam?
I am not Muslim but have many Muslim friends. One of topics in General Paper is Prejudice and Discrimination. Americans seem to be virulently Islamophobic - and racist. For example, Wikipedia is owned by an American organisation and your article on "Islamic terrorism" has anti-Islam bias, even in the title. Anyway, my question is about terms for terrorism conducted by Muslims. Which imply that Islam is the cause or that Muslims are terrorists (e.g. Islamic terrorism) and which do not imply that (Islamic extremist terrorism)? Hopefully using terms that do not blame Islam will lead to a decrease in American Islamophobia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.10 (talk) 03:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Is this a complaint about the way Wikipedia presents these articles, or are you asking whether the use of such language helps to further anti-Muslim prejudice in the United States? If it is the first, this is not the place to ask. Anyway, we also have articles called Christian terrorism and Jewish religious terrorism—the second is obviously not called "Jewish terrorism" because it might imply something by members of the ethnic group, not members of the religious group. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Are there Jews who are not Jewish?--ChokinBako (talk) 17:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That might depend on what you mean by Jewish. Many Americans who do not practice Judaism (do not hold its religious beliefs, do not attend religious services) identify culturally with Judaism.  OtherDave (talk) 18:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, it is just that I was didn't know there was an 'ethnic group' called 'Jews', which were distinct from the religious group. Are we talking the same distinction as Catholics who do not go to church or practice Catholicism still saying they are Catholics? In any case, they would not be an ethnic group. They would be people whose ancestors were Jews, but they would not actually be Jews, in the sense that they didn't actually do anything to confirm their religion, which is, after all, Judaism.ChokinBako (talk) 20:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There most definitely is an ethnic group called Jews. That's what much of the Holocaust was all about.  People whose families had been Christians for many generations were still very much at risk of being sent to the gas chambers merely because of their DNA.  Who is a Jew? might help here.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Americans seem to be virulently Islamophobic - and racist. Well Muslims seem to be intolerant zealots - and terrorists. Or perhaps both of these statements apply only to very, very small subsets of the groups they claim to describe. Strad (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

My question is, of the terms for terrorism conducted by Muslims, which terms are Islamophobic and blame Islam (like Islamic terrorism) and which are not Islamophobic and do not really blame Islam (like Islamic extremist terrorism)? Of course, using non-Islamophobic terms helps fight Islamophobia, but we need examples of Islamophobic and non-Islamophobic terms first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.13.1 (talk) 13:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you read Islamic terrorism? There are some neutral terms mentioned there. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 13:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The term "Islamic terrorism" simply refers to terrorism commited by those claiming they are doing so for Muslim religous reasons. The term does not imply that all, most, or even many Muslims are terrorists.  As for the US being intolerant of Muslims, that's simply not true.  I happen to live near a rather large Muslim community in Dearborn, Michigan and can attest that they are quite widely accepted.  There was, as could be expected, some backlash after the 9-11 attacks, but that has mostly faded away by now.  If you compare the situation with other western nations, like France, Muslims are treated far better in the US.  Also, there seems to be a fundamental flaw in your argument that Wikipedia is owned by Americans, so reflects the American POV.  Wikipedia is edited by people from around the world.  I would expect a bias towards English-speaking people in English Wikipedia, but that's not the same thing at all. StuRat (talk) 00:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Missing Hebrew renditions
Most articles on angels give the rendition of the names in Hebrew (e.g. גַּבְרִיאֵל Gabriel, מיכאל‎ Michael, רפאל Raphael, אוּרִיאֵל Uriel), but the articles Azrael, Israfel, and Sandalphon are missing that information. What are the Hebrew names of those angels I mentioned for which the Hebrew names are missing in the articles?

Also, the article Uzziel is missing Hebrew.

The article Son of God contains Greek renditions but not Hebrew, which is another omission that could use some correction.

A related question: the prefix "Mc-" in Gaelic means "son of"; in Arabic, "ibn" has a similar meaning and usage; in English, this is usually done with the construction "-son" as in, for example, "Johnson". Is there a similar construction in Hebrew that is used in personal names?

—Lowellian (reply) 05:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To your last query: in Jewish religious rites, a man is known as [first name] ben (בן) [father's first name]. This sometimes but not often appears as a Hebrew surname. The basics are described and explained in Jewish name. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that there are Hebrew names for those angels: they come from an Arabic/Muslim tradition, except for Sandalphon-- and the article does give the latter's Hebrew name. Rhinoracer (talk) 10:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No, there most definitely are Hebrew names for those angels; the pages are just missing the information. This is a case of the information on the pages being incomplete. Sandalphon and Uzziel, for example, only recently got the Hebrew name added (check the page history), and the information was added only after I asked, with this reference desk question, for the Hebrew names to be added. Even with Azrael and Israfel coming primarily from an Arab/Muslim tradition, there is extensive scholarship in Hebrew on Islam (and remember, there are many Muslims who speak Hebrew as a native language). Furthermore, the Azrael page, for example, mentions that the angel also appears in Hebrew lore. At the very least, there must be transliterations. And for that matter, Son of God is definitely not an exclusively Christian term, and that article is still missing the actual Hebrew rendition despite talking about the Hebrew words for it in the article text.


 * —Lowellian (reply) 05:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The angles' names you've indicated are from a hebrew origin, yet not being recognized as names in the jewish tradition (except for Sandalphon, recognized as an angle's name in the jewish tradition, yet not being from a hebrew origin). Here are the translations into hebrew:
 * Sandalphon: סנדלפון
 * Azrael = עזראל
 * Israfel = ישרפאל
 * Uzziel = עוזיאל
 * Son of = Ben. e.g Davidson = Ben David (so in hebrew it's a prefix rather than a suffix).
 * Hope it helps.
 * Eliko (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

meaning of "Short-waisted"?
What is the meaning of "short waist" or "long waist" when describing a woman's body type?

Does it mean the distance from the floor to the waist is higher or lower than average? Or does it mean that the waistline is thinner or fatter than average? etc? I'm not sure.

For example: http://www.omiru.com/index.php/2005/05/17/womens-figure-flattery-guide-short-waisted/

--206.248.172.247 (talk) 07:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It refers to the height of the waist above the floor rather than the width. Richard Avery (talk) 07:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

So really it's talking about leg length, one could say? Or is there more to it?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 07:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't confirm Richard Avery's response (above) from any English usage with which I'm familiar. In dressmaking, "waist length" is the measurement take from the prominent bone at the nape of the neck in a vertical line to the natural waistline. Comparison to a standard pattern size yields "short-waisted" or "long-waisted," proportional to a standardized figure type. In couture, a dress design may be "dropped-waist" in relation to the natural waistline. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Relating to leg length: a long-waisted woman with relatively short legs and a (taller) man with long legs, may be at the same eye level when seated, and when they stand up he'll be a head taller than she. (Testimonial evidence submitted by ''Deborahjay (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC))


 * My information concurs with that of Deborahjay, rather than that of Richard Avery. A "short-waisted" person (usually spoken of women) is one who is short from shoulder to waist, or whose waist is close to (or "high") in respect of her bosom. ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I would agree. It seems to be a dress-making term, but I normally (colloquially) would say they have a 'short body/torso' (with long legs) or 'long body/torso' (with short legs). In other words, two women who are both 5 ft 5 may have very different proportions. One may have long legs and a short body (they would be 'short-waisted') and the other short legs and a long body (they would be 'long-waisted') and yet be the same height. That link you provided would seem to be advice for short-waisted women (women with a short body and long legs for their height) on how to create the illusion of a longer body and more equal proportions. She&#39;sGotSpies (talk) 10:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Having now asked my wife, who is a competent dressmaker, she tells me I am incorrect and Deborah is right. Ho hum.. Richard Avery (talk) 17:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As opposed to 'shortarse' (does that exist across the pond as 'shortass'?) which definitely refers to length of leg. --ColinFine (talk) 22:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Mit den besten Wünschen!
What would be an accurate, idiomatic translation to English of the above phrase in the following context: a underground drawing by artist Leo Haas in the Terezin (Theresienstadt) concentration camp. It depicts a small group of Jews—two elderly and infirm, two little children, one a laboring man shouldering several long-handled work implements (spade, shovel, etc.)—encircled by a giant hand pointing to their destination: "Wüst" (which I'll translate as "wilderness"). Lettered above (in small caps): "Zum 4 März 1944, Mit den besten Wünschen!" I don't have any details about what transpired on that date; am presuming it was a transport. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Mit den besten Wünschen literally means "with best wishes"; it's a slightly old-fashioned (but probably not so in the 1940s) standard greeting phrase you'd write on a present or a greeting card. I'm not so sure about "Wüst", though; as a noun, it would be "Wüste" (desert), "wüst" is an adjective and sounds a bit strange when used as a destination. Without context, it's hard to tell what it means - it might also be the name of a place, or of a person. -- Ferkelparade &pi; 14:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a photo image of the drawing. The word "Wüst" [sic] seems to be printed on a sort of tag (note the protuberance at the top) that the giant hand grips between two fingers. The letter "W" is stylized so perhaps is some sort of icon, and the tag itself has a particular shape, possibly significant. Also, in my description above I omitted mentioning a third, shadowy figure (note the legs) behind the two elderly ones at the front of the group, and that two figures wear Star of David badges (so at least these two depict Jews). Does this shed any further light? -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, now I see. The "Wüst" looks very much like a company logo, I would interpret the whole thing as an ironic greeting card to the company who presumably received a number of Jewish concentration camp inmates as forced labor on that date. Unfortunately, I have found no references to a company named Wüst using forced labor (a quick google search brought up some promising candidates in the metalworking and aeronautics industries, but they all have been founded much later) - I guess this goes beyond the scope of the language desk (and cetrainly beyond the scope of my expertise), I suppose a check of relevant archives is in order to find out who the Wüst company was -- Ferkelparade &pi; 09:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * de:Wüst provides nothing useful as far as I can tell. Fritz Wüst was an expert on ironworks and founded the Max Planck Institute for Iron Research GmbH, but doesn't seem to have had a company called Wüst. —Angr 10:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Evaluating the direction suggested by Ferkelparade and checked out by Angr, I'd say the presence of one laborer in a group of over- or underage persons doesn't make a labor camp a likely destination. Moreover, if I'm allowed a bit of history for the sake of context: Of the 140,000 Jews sent to the Theresienstadt concentration camp during its 52 months of operation, "33,000 died there, 88,000 were deported to extermination camps [emphasis mine], and 19,000 survived in the camp or were transferred to Switzerland or Sweden." (Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, vol.4, p.1463; the EH is quite scrupulous in what it terms an extermination camp as distinct from other types.) Seems to me the mysterious "W üst" may be a euphemism for a bad end. Does üst alone have any significance? Does Wüst rhyme with anything likely? Or shall we let it go for now?-- Deborahjay (talk) 12:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Though I find Fp and Angr's trail more promising (the tag does indeed look like a company logo), I have a more far-fetched speculation to add: "jemanden in die Wüste schicken" is a common German phrase, literally meaning "to send someone into the desert", figuratively meaning something like "to give someone the boot". The phrase probably originates from Leviticus where the scapegoat is ritually driven off into the wilderness. To apostrophize the word "Wüste" into "Wüst' " is not very common, however, and this might just be an eerie coincidence, whether intended by the artist or not. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Taking all of the above into account, I've belatedly remembered a possible twist: the artist's use of language may reflect his Slovakian origins and his having passed through a number of Nazi camps before his lengthy stay in Theresienstadt. I've viewed a scant two dozen drawings by Leo Haas (1900-1983), and several have inscriptions quite likely sardonic in tone (e.g. Nisko being the setting for the not-quite-straightforward use of "Die Kultusgemeinde" plus the rest of that inscription I've yet to puzzle out.) Thanks for your input! -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just for completeness sake) Two other prominent Wüsts during the Third Reich: Walther Wüst (1901-1993), professor of Oriental Studies, ideologist of Nazi race theory. Among other, he was appointed as president of the Forschungsgemeinschaft Deutsches Ahnenerbe in 1937, the year Haas was imprisoned, and as deacon of the University of Munich in 1941, where he was personally involved in quashing the White Rose. And there was Ida Wüst (1884-1958), a theatre and movie actress, popular in the 20s and 30s, who, in 1946, was accused of having denounced actor colleagues to the Gestapo.
 * I'm wondering whether there were metal luggage tags ("Gepäckmarken") at the time shaped something like the one in the illustration, but I wasn't able to find anything similar on eBay or other sites. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not related to the initial question, but the inscription on the second picture you said you'd need to puzzle out reads Die Kultusgemeinde u. Aerzte, i.e. und Ärzte (meaning "and medical doctors") -- Ferkelparade &pi; 18:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Great! That was my provisional translation (I call 'em "physicians"), but my first encounter with the abbreviated und so I appreciate the confirmation. Thanks again! --Cheers, Deborahjay (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Nietzsche
Is it pronounced Neat-chuh,

Neat-chee,

Nee-chuh,

Nee-chee,

Nee-cher,

or something else? 71.174.26.247 (talk) 18:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)Stingray
 * The article gives [ˈniːtsʃə]. That's something like neats-shuh, if you don't know IPA. Algebraist 18:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I've never heard anyone say it that way. Thanks! 71.174.26.247 (talk) 18:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)Stingray
 * It rhymes with "nice to meetcha", although English speakers often pronounce it to rhyme with "peachy". —Angr 20:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * While 'Neachee' makes me wince a bit, English has always angicized foreign names. It'll be a sad day when we have to pronounce Paris as the French do, Berlin as Berliners say it, or Don Quixote on the lines of the best Castilian! Xn4  ( talk ) 20:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the article wrong, then? Algebraist 21:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's not wrong. Those who know their Nietzsche have a moral responsiblity to set the world right (and I'm sure he'd approve).  As Monty Python said "There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya 'bout the raising of the wrist".  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is wrong. It gives [ˈniːtsʃə], i.e. NEETS-sha. It's [ˈniːtʃə], i.e. NEE-cha. —Angr 07:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I just fixed it. —Angr 07:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Nice to know I've been getting it right all my life after all. Algebraist 11:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have heard "Nee-chuh" (or "Nee-cha") but never "Neats-shuh"... 71.174.26.247 (talk) 09:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)Stingray


 * Why couldn't it be "neetch", "neach"? Why does it have to end on that "uh", "a" sound? The only bad analogies I can think of are "niche" and "quiche", although they are from French and don't have the "t" they both end in "eesh". 190.244.186.234 (talk) 22:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Because that's how the German language is pronounced? Algebraist 00:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"Neetch"? Hmm, never heard that one either... Anyone speak German? That's probably the best way to find a definitive pronunciation. I think some of the Monty Python folks spoke German, so now I'm inclined towards saying it to rhyme with "teach ya" (that's a lovely quote btw, JackofOz :-) )71.174.26.247 (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)StingRay
 * When I was in college we used "Neetch" to refer to a Nietzschean aphorism (or a pseudo-Nietzschean aphorism). As in "Michael's favorite Neetch is 'When you go to visit a woman, bring your whip.'" Never written, to my knowledge, so maybe we'd have transcribed it etymologically as Nietzsch rather than phonetically as Neetch. - Jmabel | Talk 23:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I speak German and I answered above. The Monty Python quote is fun, but "meetcha" is a better rhyme than "teach ya" because Nietzsche doesn't have the y-sound that "teach ya" does. If you speak a non-rhotic accent like most of England and all of Australia, it also rhymes with "teacher". —Angr 04:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In my "teach ya" example, I failed to take into account that people who don't known Monty would pronounce it as separate words. In this case it is of course meant to be pronounced exactly like non-rhotic "teacher", to make it rhyme with .. well, Nietzsche of all things. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, "Neetcha", got it. Thank you all so much! 71.174.26.247 (talk) 07:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Stingray

Not only did the Pythons speak some German, they actually recreated some of their sketches for German TV-- in German. Rhinoracer (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Italian "giovane"
How do you pronounce "giovane". To be specific, Im not sure whether the "i" is pronounced but if someone could give me the IPA for the entire word that would be great. --212.120.246.239 (talk) 22:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is one of my all-time bugbears. The "gio" is pronounced virtually the same as the English "jo".  The "i" is simply there to soften the "g" from a hard sound (as in gutter) to a "j" sound (as in, well, Jack), and is not separately pronounced.  I spend my life cringing when I hear sports broadcasters referring to men named Giovanni (pronounced jo-VAH-nni) as "JEE-o-varny", or Giacomo (JAH-ko-mo) as "JEE-a-como".  (Sorry about my IPA ineptitude.)  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks and don't worry about the IPA as you explained it well anyway. However, I have one other question about the word: is the "e" at the end pronounced? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yes indeed - jo-VAH-neh. --  JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Or possibly JO-va-neh - an Italian expert can confirm. --  JackofOz (talk) 00:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You can listen to it here. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And in case your speakers are down, the clip (and experts) confirm that Jack's second pronunciation is correct: The emphasis is on the first syllable. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)