Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 29

= July 29 =

Need South Indian transcriptions for the word "Gautham"
in

1.) Tamil

2.) Telugu

3.) Malayalam

4.) Kannada

It's really urgent. Please help! --91.130.91.110 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see Transliteration. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice hint. If somebody here is a native speaker, please contact me on talk page. --91.130.91.110 (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Tense or Tensed?
Is it wrong if I say "I'm tensed." instead of "I'm tense."? (As in, tensed due to an exam that's about to start.)  La Alquimista   09:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Normally, it would be "I'm tense". People sometimes say "I'm all tensed up", but not "I'm tensed".  --  JackofOz (talk) 08:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! La Alquimista  09:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * But Im stressed (up)?
 * Yep. Or "stressed out".  But not "tensed out".  A student coming out of a long lecture about the differences between past, present and future verbs would be "all tensed up", and one coming out of a long lecture on nuances of pronuncation might be "stressed out". :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thesaurus request
For some time I've been trying to find/recall a word used to describe the phenomenon of noticing things more often once they've been brought to one's attention. To try and elaborate on the loose and fluffy description; Learning a word for the first time and then reading it in a newspaper article, in your book, on the radio several times over the next few days. Similarly, when I was looking into buying a new car, suddenly the roads seemed full of a particular model that I hadn't, knowingly, ever seen before. I vaguely remember there being a word for this, possibly a German portmanteau. I think I understand the neurology/psychology of it but can't put a name to it. Any ideas (and I hope that others experience this otherwise I may need medical help..)? P.S. I don't think it's serendipity, which seems to be what most people suggest. Thanks, Od6600 (talk) 10:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sensitivity? - X201 (talk) 10:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I might describe myself as having a heightened awareness of the thing in question, or that I was more cognizant of it, maybe? I'm afraid I don't know the possibly-German word you are thinking of, though.  -- tiny plastic Grey Knight &#x2296; 14:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The expression I'd use in German would be "selektive Wahrnehmung" - this does probably not exactly roll off the tongue if you're not a native speaker, so I don't think it is what you're looking for. -- Ferkelparade &pi; 15:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I know what you mean. Hmmm, synchronicity? Confirmation bias? Neither of those exactly match... 79.66.124.253 (talk) 15:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I expect psychologists have a term for the phenomenon, but there is no term in general use (AFAIK). You could try the psychology help desk.  Wanderer57 (talk) 15:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Increased sensitivity or sensitization —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.156.194 (talk) 02:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You might be thinking of confirmation bias. —D. Monack talk 22:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My wife and I call it the "white car phenomenon". --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 18:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

"Die Sterblichkeit..." (quoted from "Völkischer Beobachter")
In this drawing by Jo Spier, made during his internment in the Theresienstadt concentration camp, there's an inscription in German I can't quite make out, let alone translate in full. The top line is a slogan from the Völkischer Beobachter. The "Cavalier Kaserne" was (if I understand my sources correctly) a barracks for "war invalids" (BE; in AE: "disabled veterans") among the deportees, who had fought for Germany in the First World War and rated preferential living conditions in the camp. I'd appreciate help with a typed rendition of the inscription text, and its translation to English. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd read it as "Die Sterblichkeit in Th (presumably Theresienstadt) ist befriedigend", meaning "Mortality at Th is satisfactory" (or "at a satisfactory level") and "Sterben ist keine Angelegenheit, Leben ist das schwerere", meaning "Dying is no big deal, living is harder". I'm not quite sure about "Sterben", it's almost illegible (looks more like "Steiten", but that's not a word), but from context (with the "Leben" on the next line) I'm pretty sure that's what it reads. -- Ferkelparade &pi; 11:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say Ferkelparade has it exactly right. "Sterben" looks a little weird because it uses the shape of handwritten "r" that is still common in America but now obsolete in Germany - but it's the same handwritten "r" as in "Sterblichkeit" in the top line and in "schwerere" in the following line. We're just lucky he didn't use Kurrent! —Angr 11:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The Kavalier Kaserne is mentioned in the trial of Adolf Eichmann: Ansbacher: "To the best of my knowledge this drawing shows the Schleuse... The Schleuse was the place to which people were taken after they arrived on the transport.  They conveyed them into a closed courtyard where they were classified according to work potential, according to sex and age.  Everyone had to pass by a check post of Czech gendarmes who seized any article which had some value, such as thermos flasks, cigarettes, writing paper, and even toilet paper... This place in the picture - where we also arrived - shows the Schleuse in the Kavalier Kaserne which was next to the Hohen Elbe hospital.  From there we could see the faces of the people of Theresienstadt, who looked at us in alarm.  This was our first welcome into the ghetto."  Xn4  ( talk ) 15:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Unless it has been consumed by alcohol"
Can one say in English that ;

"Next time, try to use your *head*, unless what used to be inside it has been CONSUMED by alcohol over the years.”

Is "Consumed" the right word to use in such a sentence, suggesting that this drunkard that are being addressed might have had his intelligence drained by all too many years of drinking?

If "consume" is not a good word to use, then which word(s) are better to use?

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 29 July 2008


 * "I'm not sure that "consumed" would get the exact sense across of someone who has been addled by drink. I might go with "pickled". - EronTalk 13:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But pickled means only drunk there and then, no? I mean like brain-addled as you say after years of drinking, so that the person now comes out as rather dumb, and it is not reverseable... What about simply using ADDLED?

"Next time, try to use your *head*, unless what used to be inside it has been ADDLED by alcohol over the years.”

But if "pickled" is the best word to use, then ok I guess.. I cna only say thank you ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 29 July 2008


 * I wouldn't say "pickled" is the best word, it's just the word that I would use to express that thought. You are trying to find a way to express the idea that a person's intellectual ability has been affected by chronic alcohol abuse. Unless you use strictly literal or medical terms, any way you express it will be somehow symbolic. I wouldn't use consumed, myself, because that suggests that the person's head has actually been physically emptied out. But really, this isn't a question that has a single right or best answer. "Addled" would work just as well. - EronTalk 13:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

...Compare the phrase "consumed by fire".87.102.86.73 (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference is that fire actually consumes things as a natural course of existing. Alcohol doesn't consume nearly as much as it is consumed.  Alcohol does dilute which might be a decent choice. Leftus (talk) 06:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What about 'negatively impacted' or 'affected by' or maybe 'impaired by' I personally would say impaired by, it sounds more encyclopedic IMHO. Landon1980 (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My Merriam-Webster has 'fried' as meaning 'intoxicated'. They dated this as first used in 1926.


 * In this usage, 'fried' means 'currently intoxicated'. However, the use of the word has been extended to refer to longer term effects as well. For example, "He fried his brain cells years ago."


 * A complication with this usage is that it could refer to use of alcohol or to use of other drugs.


 * Wanderer57 (talk) 00:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Eroded, wasted, done? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (outdent) I actually like "pickled", because something does not become pickled immediately just by placing it in (some liquid), it become pickled from soaking in said liquid. Thus, the concept of time is built into the word.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  18:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I like eroded myself, as Julia suggested. It's something liquid can do, and it does take time to erode, much like the effects of alcohol. And it's permanent, more or less. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

OO? 00?
The washroom page at present only mentions "WC" to mark a public lavatory. What about the double-zero, or is this a double letter "O"? I don't even know which it is, and the disambiguation pages for both don't mention this usage, or did I miss something? Which symbol is it, what's the derivation, in which countries does its use predominate? -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the German article on Toilette, it is "00" (zeros), and stems from 19th century hotels which usually had their hallway toilets near the stairwell or elevator, where the numbering of rooms started as well. Thus the "toilet rooms" carried the number zero, or "00". (no sources given for this claim, unfortunately, but it might be a starting point). here is a putto directing you to the Oktoberfest's WC. ---Sluzzelin talk  13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * See also "Sokol"'s comments here. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In 11 years in Berlin, I have never seen "00" on a public toilet or a sign pointing the way to one. The photo you linked to is from Munich and Sokol at the forum is talking about Austria; could this be an Austro-Bavarian thing I wouldn't understand? —Angr 14:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't recall people referring to it as "null-null" in conversations, but I guess I must have seen it somewhere in Austria. Hope the Austros&Bavarians can shed some light here. The Austrian company at www.nullnull.at delivers and rents out toilets, I had known S. C. Johnson & Son's toilet cleaning detergent 00 for many years, but only now understand its profound etymology. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (... and, of course, numbering toilets fits perfectly into the cliché of the compulsive bureaucratic Zeitgeist that was the k.u.k.). ---Sluzzelin talk  15:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was once in a small Hungarian town (may be Pusztaszabolcs, I cannot remember) at the railway station. I asked for the toilets and I was told it was the door with "00" (nulla nulla) written on it. AldoSyrt (talk) 17:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Umm... actually the query arose in lunchroom conversation yesterday with French and Dutch colleagues (who left postwar Europe as children), but what reminded me to ask here today was encountering this caricature of the Westerbork camp, in the Jo Spier series of artworks (possibly from his Theresienstadt ghetto period, 1942-1945, though this drawing appears undated). Without delving into the literature, it seems likely (?) that the "00" was posted by the Nazi German staff rather than the local Czechs. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Deborahjay,
 * You could have asked another question:
 * which is better: "My phone number is Oh to...", or: "My phone number is zero two...".
 * Answer: doesn't matter - in English.
 * You're a hebrew speaker. When hebrew speakers give a phone number, they don't say: "Oh...", nor: "Sahmekh...", but rather: "Effes..." (i.e. zero). However, when the israeli soldiers talk in Hebrew about the Second-in-Command, or the Executive Officer, they don't say: "Effes", but rather: "Sahmekh" (being a useful verbal acronym for "Sgahn"). However, the equivalent term for the public lavatory in Hebrew is: "Effes-Effes" (i.e. zero zero), rather than "Sahmekh Sahmekh" (or: "oh oh"). So not only German, but also Hebrew (which you speak), may solve the problem.
 * Eliko (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Eliko's remark about phone numbers, "Doesn't matter - in English", is not exactly right for North America. North American phones still have letters on them and the letter O corresponds to the digit 6.  This is a holdover from the days when a number would be written in the style "KLondike 5-0100" or "KL5-0100" instead of the modern "555-0100" (which is how it was actually dialed), and is preserved mostly because some businesses like to choose phone numbers made up entirely of letters that spell words so you can remember them.  But at least some of us learned that you do not pronounce 0 in a phone number as "oh", because O means 6.  (Ambiguity is rare in practice, because nobody would express a phone number like 555-O100.  So if someone says "five five five - oh one hundred", people will understand it as 555-0100.  But still, some of us try not to do that.)  --Anonymous, zero seven nineteen UTC, July 31, 2008.
 * Eliko, you're quite right that the numeral "zero" is more international than Latin-alphabetic "O"; my naming them as I did (and in haste) was only to differentiate them in phrasing the query. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing "OO"/"00" pronounced, except as a family in-joke ("Ooooh, Ooooh!" in relief at finding a direly needed public lavatory). For the record: as a native speaker of American English, I'll use either "zero" or "oh" interchangeably when speaking numbers aloud (phone #s, SSN, etc.); in fact, "oh" has the advantage of brevity unless I want to be ultraprecise. As for Hebrew usage, I've never heard a public lav referred to as anything but the all-purpose sherutim (which I roughly translate as "facilities"), which has the advantage of being a full syllable shorter than efes-efes.

Then again, I've never served in the military myself, though am presently the proud mother of two IDF soldiers, conscripted a year apart, who rarely speak Hebrew to their immigrant parents except an occasional burst of bewildering acronyms. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're quite right that the more useful term (in Hebrew) for a public lav is: "Sherutim". However, "Effes-Effes" is possible too (as a rare term), while "Sahmekh-Sahmekh" (or "Oh Oh") is never used in Hebrew for a public lav nor for any lav (although "Sahmekh" is used for the Executive Officer in the army, as you can realize by asking your children). Your being an immigrant - explains why you haven't heard the rare term: Effes-Effes, but you can ask other native hebrew speakers (like me) and they will approve that. Eliko (talk) 20:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose we don't have a Wikipedia article about toilet symbols in different cultures, but that might be an interesting topic. For me both WC and 00 would be clear, as well as an ideogram of a man and a woman. But I would also recognize a symbol that I haven't seen anywhere outside my home country, that is a triangle (Gentlement) and a circle (Ladies). I wonder if other countries have other such unique toilet symbols. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 20:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * From Flickr, check out gendersigns group and Restroom signs set and restroom + signs tags jnestorius(talk) 22:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In reply to Kpalion: where are you from? In my experience, the big circle and triangle signs are sufficiently ubiquitous in California as to be mandatory; and I've never seen them anyplace outside of the state.  (Maybe I don't get out enough.)  After thinking about it -- exactly what purpose could a large unmistakable geometric sign serve? -- I think the most likely explanation is that California (whilst trying to get out in front of the rest of the country again) has legislated a sign that even a guide dog can understand.
 * I've never, in twenty-plus years, found a Californian who could definitively confirm or absolutely deny that was the case, but everyone I've asked about it (1) thought it made sense, and (2) agreed it was consistent with Things Californian.
 * --Danh, 67.40.167.150 (talk) 01:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Somehow to a German it is clear that '00' (double zero) means 'toilet', although I don't know where it comes from (it could have been a euphemism) and you don't see many toilets with such a sign nowadays. I suppose it is a bit old-fashioned. (You know the joke about the guy in a hotel in room 100, where the '1' falls off the door and all sorts of people keep turning up in his room during the night...?) -- 84.160.15.65 (talk) 13:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a sign which throws in everything including the kitchen sink (the circle and triangle among them): http://www.othermag.org/blog.php?p=209&c=1 [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (1) I was in a public building in Estonia once where the restroom doors were marked ▲ and ▼. Totally baffling until we saw another set of restrooms on a different floor where the symbols had little circles above them. Then it was clear, the little circles represented heads, ▲ represented a woman's dress, and ▼ represented a broad-shouldered, narrow-waisted man. But on one floor, the little circles had fallen off, leaving just the triangles. (2) Visitors to the Gaeltacht are sometimes thrown off by FIR (= men) and MNÁ (= women), and will often enter the wrong restroom on the assumption that the initials F and M have their familiar denotations. (3) Readers who know Ancient Greek will get this one: in the Classics building at my university, we once covered up the sign that said "WOMEN" with a sign that said simply "ΔΕ". —Angr 18:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delta epsilon? Avnas Ishtaroth drop me a line  01:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A phrase or clause with the clitic "men" followed by a phrase or clause with the clitic "de" is an ancient Greek correlative construction; "men" and "de" are somewhat notoriously difficult to translate into English as single words... AnonMoos (talk) 03:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, AnonMoos got the joke! (The building's janitor didn't, though, and the sign came down within 24 hours.) We were taught to think of men as "on the one hand" and de as "on the other hand" but semantically weaker than those phrases in English. When translating, we left men out altogether and translated de as "but". Men could be translated into German as zwar (another particle that's very difficult to translate into English). —Angr 05:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've also seen these triangles with heads in Japan although they additionally used light blue for men & pink for women. – ishwar  (speak)  19:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Danh: I'm from Poland. It could be that there was at some point in history an attempt to introduce the triangle and circle as an international, unified, simplistic symbol, but it hasn't caught on except in a few isolated places like Poland and California. But that's just my guess. Angr's story about "Fir" and "Mná" reminded me of a joke about toilets in Russia. It said that toilets in regular hotels were marked "M" for "Мужчины" (Men) and "Ж" for "Женщины" (Women). But really fancy hotels had them the other way around: "M" for "Мадамы" (Mesdames) and "Ж" for "Жентелмены" (Gentlemen). I don't how much of this is true though. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 09:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was in a hotel here in Germany that decided to avoid any possible confusion: there were paintings of a penis and a vulva next to the respective restroom doors. Can't get much more explicit than that. —Angr 09:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In everyday Italian, "Signore" means "Mister" and "Signora" means "Mrs.".
 * Italian toilet signs use their respective plurals, where "Signori" means "Men" and "Signore" means "Women".
 * See Venice Public Toilets - Venice for Visitors, point 4. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You can see some toilet signs not yet mentioned by doing a Google image search for "toilet sign". -- Wavelength (talk) 14:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Pronuncation of letter 'v' in Esperanto
I have been puzzling over this for some time now. Many sources, including our own Esperanto phonology page, claim that the letter 'v' in Esperanto is pronounced /v/. However, I also sometimes hear that it is somewhat like /w/ or /u/, or something similar. That vowel/semivowel pronuncation would appear to fit better with the words the letter tends to be used in - such as "lingvo" (language), in which it would be rather hard to say /lingvo/ (or /liŋgvo/), unless you perhaps aspirated the 'g' or added a schwa after it? The letter 'u' in Esperanto already stands as /u/, while 'ŭ' represents a near /w/ sound, so I also find it hard to believe they would have still yet another "u"-like sound on top of those two already. Anyway, hope you may be able to answer. Cheers. 84.13.198.10 (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There are audio files of four different persons pronouncing the Esperanto word "lingvo" in the sample paragraph near the bottom of the page at Esperanto Pronounciation : Esperanta Prononco. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That page says "The definitive Esperanto pronunciation would be professor John C. Wells and his 45 phonograph record that came out in the 70s." A recording of Esperanto pronunciation (by J. C. Wells) should play automatically when one opens the page at Esperanto Education - Pronunciation CD Track 3.  The word "lingvo" is among the words spoken. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was taught esperanto with the instruction to pronounce V as the French or English v. There is another letter for the w sound: Ǔ. --Lgriot (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)