Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 4

= July 4 =

What is the correct plural form of 'Eclectus'?
Eclectuses? Eclecti? Eclectus? Something else entirely? Any ideas? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 00:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the word doesn't exist in classical Latin, I assume that the species name was coined as a second declension noun (like Tyrannosaurus, etc.), in which case the Latinate plural would be eclecti. I, however, tend to prefer Anglicized plurals for such names when treated as English common nouns— eclecticuses eclectuses in this instance. But what's the problem with  eclecticus eclectus parrots, which would be my first choice? Deor (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be "eclectuses", not "eclecticuses", Deor? --  JackofOz (talk) 04:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, I was getting sleepy. Thanks, Jack. Deor (talk) 12:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Third highest graduate
As with valedictorian and salutatorian being highest and second highest graduate, respectively, I'm wondering if there is a word for the third highest. I suspect it has to have Latin roots as the others, but I have no idea what that is. If there isn't such a word, what other word could best relate to it? Thanks,  Valens Impérial Császár  93  01:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The two terms you refer to essentially indicate the persons' functions at the graduation ceremony, so if the third-ranking student has no such function, there's no reason for a name to be assigned. You could make one up, though—tertian, perhaps, or penehonoratan. Deor (talk) 01:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ME!!! Lucky (enough not to have to speak at the graduation ceremony).  Bronze Brain.--omnipotence407 (talk) 04:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If I remember right, those ranked from third to seventh (usually, this can go up to the tenth-ranking student) are the honorable mentions. For the third-highest graduate, he/she would be the first honorable mention. --Sky Harbor (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't think of a term used generally in the UK. In the Mathematical Tripos at Cambridge, the title would be third wrangler. Xn4  18:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

French popular song appearing in older edition of French in Action textbook series
In the second book of an older edition of the popular textbook series "French in Action" (what would most likely be used for a second-year high school course), there was a popular song used as part of the additional optional material at the end of one of the chapters. This song was apparently a hit in France in the 1980's. The singer was female, but I don't remember her name or the name of the song. The song was about meeting up with friends after school, going to a little cafe and hanging out for a while, then getting home late and getting in trouble. The lyrics to the song were printed in the textbook and the song itself was included on a tape for teachers to play for their students. Can anyone help me identify the name of this song and the artist who performed it? - Aletheia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 08:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By any chance, do you remember the melody? Korg (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No - and I don't know how that would help here anyway, unless I posted a music file of myself humming it - but I do remember a couple of phrases. I don't remember the exact wording on one, but at the little cafe, she sang about how she bought some kind of sweet snack for her friend, and her friend bought her an ice cream. Then, when she got home late and her father was angry, she sang, "Ca vraiment va etre ma fete," or a very similar phrase; I know the idiom basically translated "It's really going to be my party" and meant, in effect, "Boy, am I going to get it now." - Aletheia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 05:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't identify what song it is, sorry. Maybe you could remember more words of the song? Otherwise good luck in your search. Korg (talk) 21:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Means
What does "music grammars" mean:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2008_June_25#http:.2F.2Fen.wikipedia.org.2Fwiki.2FGenerative_music.23Noatikl? Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems you have a long and thoughtful answer from Pfly here dated July 4 on your talk page. Would you like to share it with the desk? Julia Rossi (talk) 09:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Googling here gives: A limited set of rules that can generate indefinitely large sets of musical events and/or their structural descriptions. Ray Jackendoff seems to have done some work on that 20-odd years ago and his papers should be accessible in some academic library. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

wet wool
In the description of a dry white wine it is written "while aging...it is developing some notes of wet wool...". Can it be described in some other words, is it positive or negative taste? Thank you, --88.84.200.1 (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if I were a wine-drinker, I wouldn't want to drink wine that tasted like wet wool. Sounds disgusting. —Angr 16:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I enjoy the occasional glass of wine, but I'm no connoisseur - I can tell the difference between red and white, but that's about it. However, I think it's generally agreed among experts that the only thing about wine that should taste like wet wool is the expensive cheese that goes with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 16:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

This link gives a lengthy - and inconclusive, but fascinating - discussion of wet wool aroma and its possible origins in wine. That link OTOH says that it simply comes from bad casks. Either way I wouldn't drink it ;) --Dr Dima (talk) 17:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Pronounciation of latin letters in mandarin
How do mandarin-speakers pronounce the letters of the latin alphabet ? Thanks in advance, Krka (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? You mean saying the English alphabet or the pinyin alphabet? The English alphabet is largely the same as the normal English alphabet, except a few exceptions such as N being pronounced as "un" instead of "en". --antilivedT 05:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How could that be if most English letter names can't be pronounced in the Mandarin phonological system? Paul Davidson (talk) 11:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're assuming that Mandarin speakers pronounce letters of the Latin alphabet as if they were Chinese characters. I don't think that's true. --71.175.20.73 (talk) 15:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Krka was asking how a Mandarin speaker would say the names of the Latin letters if that person were to recite the alphabet. --71.175.20.73 (talk) 15:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is what I meant: how do a Mandarin speaker say the names of the Latin letters ? I guess the names must be close to a western pronounciation, but which one (English, French, ...) ? I know the Latin letters are used in everyday life in China (for example to identify trains, classes) so there must be a standard pronounciation for them. Krka (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just like English, except with a few "local variations" (eg. from Chinglish, "letters "S" and "H" ('es-see' and 'ay-chi' respectively)" and '"L", "M", and "N" as [aɪ lə] ("ai-le"), [aɪ mu] ("ai-mu") and [ən] ("n") respectively.'). We learn English as a completely different language so it doesn't matter if the phoneme doesn't exist in Mandarin or Cantonese. --antilivedT 23:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Krka's question is nuanced. He asked about the Latin alphabet, not the English alphabet. The Dutch language, for example, uses the same alphabet as English, but the letter names are not the same. Your answer seems to assume that the Latin alphabet is viewed as the English alphabet by the average Mandarin speaker. While this may indeed be true, the answer may, at least in theory, depends on the where the Mandarin speaker is from. One may wonder, for example, how a non-English-speaking mainland Chinese scholar would pronounce the letters of the Latin alphabet in the '60s, before relationship improved between the US and the PRC and before English became the most popular foreign language in that country. --71.175.20.73 (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Along the same lines, Japanese, which doesn't even use the Latin alphabet, has widely accepted Japanese names for each letter. Obviously, they differ somewhat from the various European names for the letters, due to the differing phonology of Japanese. And in English, we have names for the Greek letters that are not identical to their names in modern Greek. So what does a Mandarin Chinese speaker who knows no European languages call, for example, the letter "x"? I too am curious. Paul Davidson (talk) 01:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As a matter of fact I remember learning the French alphabet when I was young; I still have no idea why we learned that and didn't realise it until I actually took French. But how can a Chinese person with no European language knowledge at all read the alphabets, which does not exist in Chinese? He/she might mistake x for a cross or something, but otherwise it's as silly as asking how would an European person read Chinese characters if he/she has no knowledge in Chinese language at all. We simply treat it as script in another language, and read it according to that language's pronunciation (which is English for most of the population). --antilivedT 02:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Non-English-speaking is not the same as totally ignorant of European languages. Since Latin names are used in biology and medicine, you'd expect a scholar in those subjects in '60s mainland China to be familiar with the Latin alphabet, even if the scholar had not studied English. I think a similar situation exists in math. I suspect that most non-Greeks who use Greek letters in math actually know very little about the language beyond the letter names. They probably pronounce the Greek letter names according to some local butchered pronunciations too. --71.175.20.73 (talk) 02:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought (correct me if I am wrong) that Latin letters are often used in China without any reference to a foreign language. For example in train stations, I have seen that the trains are identified using letters and numbers (something like "A6088"). Also in my Chinese textbook there are examples containing phrases like 'C 班' to identify a class in a school. Ãnother possible example: when pinyin is learnt at school, is it always assumed that English has been learnt first ? Thanks in advance, Krka (talk) 16:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really. Most Chinese learn them as if they were diagrams. They learn Pinyin first (in nursery or year/grade 1), and then the Latin alphabet (most students learn that in Secondary/Middle school, but some learn that in their primary school). Pinyin is also used to help Chinese students to pronounce a word if they do not know it already, since Chinese writing is not phonetic.--Faizaguo 18:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)