Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 July 8

= July 8 =

Hypenation of "cell line"
Should "cell line" not be hyphenated? Why? Seans Potato Business 11:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no need for a hyphen because the meaning is literally a line of cells. As a general rule (there are no hard and fast rules), the hyphen is only necessary when the literal meaning of the words is modified and to be taken to mean one thing. So picket line is a line of pickets, starting line is the line at which to start, but bee-line is not a line of bees and a bread-line is not a line of bread.--Shantavira|feed me 12:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Beeline [sic], at least, appears in two standard dictionaries (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate and Encarta) in what's referred to as the "closed form": a compound word comprising two nouns without a hyphen between them. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Shantavira, there's at least one other hyphenization rule I would add: when two nouns combine to function as an adjective (called, I believe, an "attributive" noun) modifying a third. Thus: cell-line variations, cell-line anomalies, etc. This serves to disambiguate, preventing the reader from wondering how to group the nouns (i.e. not cell line-variation, cell line-anomaly...). -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Myself as a non-reflexive objective pronoun
Every "proper" language source I've consulted, including two dictionaries, a grammar blog, two English writing books, and one English professor (Master's degree) says that this usage is incorrect. However, it is very common (almost too common to be an error, I'd say) and it's even used this way in the King James Version of the Bible:

"Now Haman said in his heart, Who would the king delight to honor more than myself?" --Esther 6:6

So my question is why this is prescribed as incorrect usage. 4.242.147.107 (talk) 17:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure it doesn't say "whom"? [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] ... AnonMoos (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It actually says "To whom would the king delight to do honour more than to myself?". I think it's okay in cases where "myself" (etc.) is being used in an emphatic way, as in the quote from Esther, but not when it's just being used to get around the fact that the speaker can't remember whether to say "me" or "I" (as in "that was just between John and myself"). —Angr 18:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. Thanks to both of you for your answers (and to you in particular for correcting my quote.). 4.242.147.4 (talk) 18:46, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think this may be a case of an archaic use of the word that is no longer acceptable, but still used by mistake. Similar, but less egregious that using "learn" to mean "teach," which at one time was correct but now is not.200.42.217.61 (talk) 20:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sustensis
What is the meaning and derivation of the word Sustensis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.55.105 (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain, but it appears to be the Latin for sustainable (or at least some people believe it to be so). Algebraist 17:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems to be a company name neologism, without any other definite meaning in either English or Latin, unless it's an error for sustentis (the Latin ablative plural past participle form of the verb sustineo "to support"), or has the Latin "-ensis" adjective suffix added to a placename (like Arizonensis for "of Arizona"). AnonMoos (talk) 17:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I was going by this Google scholar hit. Is that an error? Algebraist 19:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No word "sustensis" is in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, so it's safe to say at least that it isn't a word of Classical Latin. —Angr 20:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * English words with a "-tens-" element are derived from the Latin verb tendo "to stretch", while English "sustain" is derived from the Latin verb sustineo "to support", which is a compound of the verb teneo "to hold". If someone wrote a word beginning with sustens- in Latin, then it's safe to bet that they were probably somewhat confused over whether tendo or teneo was the basis of sustineo... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Help with Russian language article concerning overstrung pianos
I would like to replace the bad Wikipedia article Cross-stringing. I have collected a bunch of stuff already, but it would benefit from a reference to this article to provide more positive comments concerning piano maker Herman Lichtenthal, who is discussed starting after footnote 42, and who is well know for having exhibited overstrung grand pianos at the 1851 Great Exhibition. The chapter is linked from МУЗЫКА В СТОЛИЧНОМ САНКТ-ПЕТЕРБУРГЕ here, and from what I can tell it was first published in 1925, and I think the author died in 1935 so if I understand Russian copyright it should be public domain by now. I was able to get a relatively good grasp of the article with online automatic translations, but I need to figure out how to cite it as well as its references, and would like to quote one of the quoted descriptions, particularly about the sound, and the square, which don't remember having seen mentioned anywhere else. - Mireut (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I suggest waiting for (or contacting) user:JackofOz, who is both a speaker of the language and a player of the instrument. As it is 5 AM Down Under, he may be currently in the process of snoring his favourite oevre of Brahms and Liszt and get up when darkness settles on Fichtburg, MA.  Of course, there may be other experts with the required knowledge.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm flattered, Cookatoo, but I'm no expert in anything. Regular readers of my user page know that I'm the original Jack of all trades and master of none.
 * Mireut, I'll have a look and do what I can; it may take some time for it to get to the top of my priority list. In the meantime, real experts are welcome to take the running.  --  JackofOz (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, guys, and I'd appreciate it if you get a chance, JackofOz. Do you think this is the same thing? I just didn't want to submit it to the translation project without knowing more about it. - Mireut (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"Upon this"
I just wrote the following in the Pac-Man World 2 article:

 Spooky'': Back in Pac-Village, Spooky creates an uproar, and Pac-Man has to defeat him. Upon this, Spooky will be re-imprisoned, peace will return to Pac-Land, and the ending sequence with the credits is played.''

Can I use "upon this"? The way I understood it, it means: "...Pac-Man has to defeat him. Upon Pac-Man defeating him, Spooky will be re-imprisoned...". But "upon" is one of the prepositions in English I have never heard anyone use, only seen it in writing very seldom, and thus I am unsure about how to use it. Is this sentence grammatically correct, or can it be written in a more grammatical way? J I P | Talk 18:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it sounds better to join the two sentences into one and write "upon which" instead of "upon this". —Angr 19:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I might rephrase the beginning of the second sentence and write "Once Spooky is defeated, he will be re-imprisoned, peace will return, etc", which would circumvent the problem. "Upon his defeat" might also work, but doesn't sound quite right to me. 69.106.4.120 (talk) 00:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Translation Help
I can't find a translation for "prepaid shipping label" (as in FedEx prepaid shipping label). 元払いのレーベル doesn't return any Google hits so that can't be it. Please help. If I just write the whole thing it out in katakana (プリペイド・シッピング・レーベル) will it be understood? 71.174.16.91 (talk) 22:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)Tasukete
 * There are several possibilities:
 * 料金前払い済みラベル (Ryōkin maebaraizumi raberu)
 * 元払いラベル (Motobarai raberu)
 * 料金プリペイドラベル(Ryōkin puripeido raberu)
 * プリペイドラベル(Puripeido raberu)
 * Hope that helps. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, but... So I can't use 運賃込みラベル? That's what I swear you had written here just a few moments ago but now it's been edited away. >_< I just wrote it down. Should I scratch it out and insert a different translation? What is most commonly used? This letter has to be done by tomorrow. I feel so stressed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.16.91 (talk) 22:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)Tasukete


 * Yes, scratch it out. I recommend using the first (料金前払い済みラベル) or last (プリペイドラベル). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I scratched it and wrote 料金前払い済みラベル instead. Thanks so much! You're a life saver! 71.174.16.91 (talk) 02:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)Tasukete