Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 June 15

= June 15 =

Hyphen-help-request
Being too lazy to slog through Hyphen, how do I handle "his second hand car salesman friend"? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would turn second-hand into a compound word, secondhand, then hyphenate: His secondhand-car-salesman friend.  It's still not as clear as a rewording might be, but I think it's clear enough.  Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 09:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it matter? The hyphens suggested by Mitchell look strange and there is no ambiguity in the phrase.  Apart from making the compound word secondhand, I wouldn't bother with any hyphens.  Astronaut (talk) 11:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought there was some ambiguity, since secondhand car salesman friend looked like the car salesman could be secondhand. Replacing secondhand with used (a better choice for this phrase anyway), you get used car salesman friend, a phrase that's familiar enough not to be too ambiguous, but the more I look at it, the more I think the first hyphen (at least) should be there: used-car salesman friend.  Put into a sentence, the second hyphen definitely clears things up and looks less awkward, as in Never again would he go on a blind date set up by his used-car-salesman friend.  It's a weird construction anyway (chains of nouns should be avoided; it's a pitfall common in business jargon AND education jargon) and depending on what the surrounding sentences look like, I might suggest his friend, the used-car salesman.

When I started typing this, I was going to agree with Astronaut, but now I've convinced myself that while Astronaut's suggestion works, my original suggestion is better, 'though still lacking in elegance. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why didn't I think of rephrasing it? Thanks. (I stumbled across it in a film summary, so it wasn't my fault.) Clarityfiend (talk) 18:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Rephrasing it works better: "his friend, a second-hand car salesman[,]" --71.162.242.162 (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ugh. That sounds like a guy who sells clock parts (second hands, you know?) from a car, or something.  At least make it "secondhand-car salesman" or "used-car salesman".  With the original wording, I agree with Mitchell's choice. --Anonymous, 21:36 UTC, June 15, 2008.

Heliciculture
Could someone give me the etymology of this word? I know it's probably related to the snail genus Helix but beyond that I'm not sure. Thanks. Nadando (talk) 05:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For helix (see also article) etymonline has: "1563, from L. [Latin] helix "spiral," from Gk. [Greek] helix (gen. helikos), related to eilein "to turn, twist, roll," from PIE base *wel- "to turn, revolve"."
 * The word culture in the sense of farming or growing a biological entity in a controlled environment is closer to the Latin verb colere ("cultivate, tend, guard, till") than culture in the sense of "patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance". ---Sluzzelin talk  05:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh is it just directly taken from the word helix? I guess I expected something else. Thanks. Nadando (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the genus Helix was named for its twisted spiraling or "coiling" shell. (See also gastropod shell), and since the famed escargot seem to originally and principally refer to Helix aspersa and Helix pomatia it's probably what gave the art of breeding any snail its modern name. I wonder whether slug-farming would be arioniculture, since it lacks a shell, but helical fits most land snails. I guess it's something akin to a genericized trademark or maybe a synecdoche? Just in case, derivations of Latin words ending in -ix become -ic when followed by a vowel. (felix >> felicitas >> felicity; matrix >> matricula >> matriculate; helix >> helical, heliciculture, ...)

Grammar question
Is this grammatically incorrect: "please enter here your account password"? Seans Potato Business 07:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not grammatically incorrect, but the placement of "here" is awkward. Move it to the end. Michael Slone (talk) 07:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What is awkward about it? Seans Potato Business 12:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The beginning of your example, "please enter here", is a complete sentence using "enter" as an intransitive verb. In contrast, your example uses "enter" as a transitive verb, so it is a garden path sentence.  Sorry for not being more explicit in my first response. Michael Slone (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ... or leave out the "here" completely - the location of where one should enter their password is implied to be in the box (or space) following the phrase. Astronaut (talk) 11:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you click on 'my preferences' at the top of this page, and try to unify your global Wikimedia account, it says 'please enter here your account password'. Seans Potato Business 12:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is anyone else wondering if we're helping someone to write a phishing email? --bodnotbod (talk) 17:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone in the potato business going phishing? I guess Sean could be trying to start a phish-and-chip shop. Michael Slone (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No. If you follow the instructions above, you will discern that I was attempting to determine whether or not there was an error on Wikipedia, and apparently there is. I can write phishing emails without external help... --Seans Potato Business 06:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Explanation of a poem by T.S Eliot
I haven't understood a few of the lines from the poem "Journey of the Magi" by T.S Eliot. Can someone please help me? ...And an old white horse galloped away in the meadow. Does the "old white horse" refer to Jesus Christ coming as "the conqueror"??Also: ...Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death Why does "death" begin with a capital "D"? Is it personified? And what does Eliot mean by "our death"? How can the Magus be dead, given that he is the one narrating the story??

Thanks in advance!! 117.194.226.74 (talk) 09:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Different interpetations exist of the old white horse galloping away: the one that makes most sense to me is that it represents paganism making place for Christianity (which is symbolized in the previous line by the "three trees on the low sky", a reference to the three crosses on Golgotha). As for Death, yes, I think it is capitalized because it is a personification, or at least something more mystical than mere biological death. When the magus speaks of "our death", he may be thinking of the old way of life that has come to an end, or of the different views of death in paganism ("our death") and in Christianity ("another death"). D AVID Š ENEK 11:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

American wanting to do bus. in Afgh. Am confused if Farsi Rosetta Stone is purchased will that be = to Dari?
There is no real quality software, that I've found at least (would greatly appreciate suggestions), on learning Dari, however there are with Farsi. Some research is telling me they're roughly the same language, and if I learn Farsi it's essentially the equivalent of Dari - thus I'll be able to speak Dari. There is other research telling me Farsi and Dari are distinct and that learning Farsi will not allow me to speak Dari. In sum, I am confused, would appreciate guidance and insight into learning the Dari language. I want to do business in Afghanistan as an American Expat, sincerely want to help the people and their great country. I toured it last year to some extent, albeit via Gov. means, but was able to get a feel for the people/country. Afghanistan is a great country with good people and I'd appreciate if I can firmly begin this process - but first need to learn the language.

Also, would it be wiser to learn Pashto rather than Dari? This question has been nagging me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.51.3.235 (talk) 13:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Dari, Farsi, Farsi-ye Dari, and Persian are all one language nowadays, with different dialects, spoken in the Greater Iran, including Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and parts of the other republics on the Northern border of Iran. If you learn Persian, you will be understood in all these regions. For more information, read the aritcle Dari (Persian) in Wikipedia. --Omidinist (talk) 14:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Dari seems to be the main lingua franca of Kabul and much of northern and western Afghanistan. Pashto is the prevailing language in the provinces to the east, south, and southwest of Kabul that are the site of the Taliban insurgency.  So, unless you plan to risk your life in regions where an American might be seen as an enemy, Dari would probably be more useful.  Marco polo (talk) 01:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

cot cot cot codaaaaak
Hi everybody,

How is the noize made by a chicken in English? (In French, it's cot cot cot codaaaak)

PS: I'm not speaking about cock-a-doodle-doo, but about the other noize. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.94.215 (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In general, English-speaking chickens cluck. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Or if writing the noise I'd use: Buck-cawk! Fribbler (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer Bu-gawk. 77.44.13.145 (talk) 11:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd write "boc boc be-caw!" —Angr 22:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "English-speaking chickens"? Wow, you gotta show me one of those! Kreachure (talk) 22:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Why hello Sir, would you care to sample one of the eggs I have presently laid?" is a posh english chicken. "A'wight, mate. I've done gone laid a washline-and-peg if you fancy it?" is a cockney chicken.... etc. But as Angr's response suggested, these things are usually writer-to-writer decisions. The english-language dog says "woof" and "bark". And the chicken is more varied, but you won't be "wrong" in what you pick. Fribbler (talk) 23:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to expand slightly on that: if you're writing "chicken dialogue", you can pick what you want (although clucking and 'boc'ing are common). If you're saying "The chickens were ____ing", clucking is by far the most common and just about standard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.60.129 (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * He probably refers to onomatopoea (if I spelled it right). 76.202.120.199 (talk) 00:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

"Something-sized" comparisons
Hello everyone, I hope this is the most adequate desk to post this query at. I wanted to know what are the most common and/or convenient "things" to compare other things with in relation to their size, e.g. saying "a fist-sized [thing]" or "[something] the size of a fist" (I sincerely don't know if this example is either common or convenient). I would love to know from the smallest ("the size of a fly", or even smaller) to the biggest ("the size of a 5-story building", and much bigger!). I think certain fruits or seeds are common for this, but I really have little idea. Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 22:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At least in America, it often depends on what's being described. Spherical objects are usually compared to balls (hail the size of golf balls) or fruit (a grapefruit-sized tumor).  In the popular parlor game Twenty Questions, a common question used to be "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" but I haven't heard this question except from people my grandmother's age.  I've often heard your example of a fist-sized ________ when talking about portion sizes in discussions about food, as in "a fist-sized portion of steak."  I hope this helps.  Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 23:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It greatly depends on what the audience is expected to be familiar with. Comparing something to the size of Rhode Island may be less meaningful to an audience expecting a comparision to Belgium. (Oh, sorry, bad word.) Rmhermen (talk) 23:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When I was learning about birds, two reference points that "everyone knows" were robins and chickens, which never made any sense to me! "How big is a crow?"  "Bigger than a robin."  "How big is a raven, then?"  "Bigger than a crow, almost as big as a chicken."
 * My advice: don't let your list include chickens. --Danh, 70.59.115.72 (talk) 23:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My advice: don't let it include robins, unless you make it clear whether you mean these or these! --Anonymous, 09:32 UTC, June 16, 2008.


 * Rather than breadbox, our question was always 'Is it bigger than a brick?' meaning a standard house brick. That always seems quite handy in that everyone I know has seen a brick. It's a common joke in the UK that every big area is compared to Wales, Belgium being a bit of a runner up. An area of rainforest the size of Wales certainly used to be encountered fairly frequently. 79.66.60.129 (talk) 00:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "The size of a Volkswagen" (referring to the classic VW Beetle) and "the size of n football fields" seem to be fairly common in North America for describing large objects. In reference to the breadbox mentioned above, comparing things to a loaf of bread also seems common. In fact, Google gives about 9,000 results for the phrase "the size of a loaf of bread", and another thousand for "bigger than a loaf of bread". Paul Davidson (talk) 01:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * For smaller things, thumb-sized is used quite frequently. Of all the "____-sized" things I googled, it got the most hits (I didn't try out that many objects though) ---Sluzzelin talk  03:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Mitchell, I still ask "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" when I play twenty questions, and unless your grandmother is in her late thirties/early forties, I'm not her age! —Angr 07:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * See also this site. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the Routemaster bus and Olympic swimming pool are standard units of measurement in many badly written news stories. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyone can use anything to compare anything. But for somewhat common phrases, "the width of a human hair" may be the smallest and "the size of Texas" may be the largest. If you're ruling out geographical comparisons, I've seen "the height of the Empire State Building" on several occasions. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)