Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 June 19

= June 19 =

Tropeiro
Hi, we're trying to translate the name of the Portuguese dish "feijâo tropeiro", but we're having a hard time translating the second word. It means something like "person who leads a caravan of cargo horses", but it seems like there should be a nice, short Anglo-Saxon word that means that? The first word means "beans". -- Beland (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Cowboy beans? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Trail boss might be a better description of the leader, although there aren't specific terms based on the animals being driven. StuRat (talk) 03:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Muleskinner beans', according to the definition of tropeiro i found.&mdash;eric 07:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the interesting replies, everyone. -- Beland (talk) 00:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

khushwant singh's writing style.
what is khushwant singh's writing style in his noveel 'Train to Pakistan' ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.177.70 (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Raunchy", "narrative", "impactful", "charming" according to this search.You'll have to click the sites yourself. Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 12:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Encouraging phrases
I am looking for phrases which show encouragement, expressing the idea-- "hope things turn out well for you".

"Good luck" is something I am avoiding because it might mean some kind of fatalism. "Godspeed" sounds archaic. Hope there are other phrases out there which sound catchy and really encouraging. Lafem (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I like "All your troubles will soon be over". :-) StuRat (talk) 03:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I noticed the smiley in your answer. Did you put it there because you realized that "All your troubles will soon be over" is ambiguous? It can be literally true when the person doesn't have much longer to live. --71.162.249.253 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If your question is whether I did, or did not, choose that phrase because of it's more ominous alternate meaning, and therefore employ intentional ambiguity, then my answer is "yes". :-) StuRat (talk) 23:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Break a leg. ---Sluzzelin talk  05:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Good luck" doesn't sound fatalistic—it merely acknowledges that some things are beyond our control. I think you already have a good way of saying it in your question ("Hope things turn out well for you"), there's no need to avoid it and look for an alternative. --71.162.249.253 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Good luck" is one of those where intonation is quite important. It can be straightforward (wishing good fortune), it can be skeptical, it can be sarcastic, it can be humorous, or any combination. "I'm running for President." "Good luck (nobody's ever heard of you.)" "I'm playing poker today." "Good luck (I hope you win.)" "I'd love to have a quiet day with my puppy." "Good luck (like there's ever a quiet day with a puppy.)" --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Not directl;y relevant to most parts of the world, but different countries with more than one official language will prrobably have equivalents - I'm not entirely sure of its usage, but isn't "Vaya con Dios" an equivalent used in the US, for instance? Here in New Zealand the Maori phrase "Kia kaha" (literally "stand strong") is often used in the sense of "be of good heart, I am with you in spirit, don't let the b*****ds drag you down" etc. Grutness...wha?  01:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Best wishes?77.44.13.145 (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Bon courage? Julia Rossi (talk) 12:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who contributed. Very interesting things I learned from you. Lafem (talk) 08:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Irmiter
Could someone please give me a possible etymology of the surname "Irmiter"? Thank you. 71.174.16.91 (talk) 04:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)Azteca
 * I couldn't find the origin of the name Irmiter, but it is likely of German origin, and nowadays the German Irmiters are centered around the district Cochem-Zell, the "Oberbürgermeister" of Kaifenheim is Rudi Irmiter. I guess it could somehow be derived from Old Saxon irmin "strong, whole", maybe also "strong, tall, exalted". I found a collection of names derived from irmin ("Imme", "Immelmann", "Ihmels", "Imlin", "Emmich", "Irmer", "Ermrich", "Irminger", etc), but not Irmiter, sorry.---

German definite article plus name
I have heard people referring in conversation to others as der John, der Schmidt and so on. What are the rules of this usage? Is it incorrect not to include the der? Is it done with both first names and surnames? Thanks. --Richardrj talkemail 07:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The default in Standard German is to have no article before proper nouns lacking any further attributes. "Anna lebt in Berlin." - "Ich habe gestern Fritz getroffen."
 * "Der Fritz" or "die Anna" can be used colloquially, and even is required in some regional dialects (Swiss German "de Fritz", "d'Anna" "s'Gretli" for example)
 * When a proper noun is preceded by an adjective or other attribute, the definite article is required. ("Die Lange Anna ist das Wahrzeichen der deutschen Nordseeinsel Helgoland" or, quoting Wilhelm Busch, "Zum Schluß noch dieses! – Ei Potzblitz! Da haben wir "den Alten Fritz". Ok, the adjectives got capitalized here because they are part of the proper names, but the same rule would apply for generic use: Der junge Goethe in seiner Zeit v. Goethe in der Campagna).
 * Sometimes it is used to clarify a proper noun's grammatical function in an otherwise ambiguous sentence. "Hat Gustav den Otto angerufen?" Without the definite article it could mean "Hat Gustav Otto angerufen?" To be absolutely clear, some people might also say "Hat der Gustav den Otto angerufen?", though that sounds very colloquial, and I certainly would never write that. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Often "der Hans" is used when the name occurs elliptically, without verb or object. Example: "Wer hat angerufen?" "Hans." would be a correct answer, but some people might feel more comfortable responding with "Der Hans.". Even more so if the name is inflected: "Wen hast du gesehen?" "Den Hans." (Though just "Hans" wouldn't be incorrect.)
 * Finally, it is possible that the definite article gets used more often in connection with foreign-language names or unusual names ("John" in your example) than with everyday German names.
 * These are all unreferenced musings. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've read that using the definite article with person's names is more common in southern varieties of German than in northern varieties, and my personal experience agrees – I frequently heard my own first name used with the definite article when I was in Austria, but I don't think I've ever heard it used that way in Berlin. —Angr 18:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That tallies with my experience - I hear it a lot here in Austria. --Richardrj talkemail 07:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed in This Grammatik der deutschen Sprache which says that first names are accompanied by a definite article in Upper German and "partially" in Central German (the exception everywhere being when one is addressing someone). It also mentions that Austrian German occasionally adds the definite article when using honorifics in combination with first names "Der Herr Richard hat eine Frage gestellt." (I wonder whether Cookatoo would actually say that). ---Sluzzelin talk  09:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I cannot answer for the Cockatoo, but I would definitely say that (in a colloquial setting - I'd never write it), and I'm not Austrian - happens in Swabian and Bavarian, too. A few additional comments on your (pretty thorough) musings:
 * I don't think there's a noticeabe difference between German names and foreign names, I'd use "der Hans" with the same frequency as "der Ahmed" or "der Vladimir".
 * Richard's initial question actually mentioned a special case which got a bit lost in the following musings, namely the use of the definite article with a last name, without any honorific ("der Schmidt", as opposed to "der Hans") . That is a South German/Upper German thing and definitely a colloquialism, it usually happens when you're talking about someone you are very familiar with but not quite on a first-name basis (like a neighbor, or the village postman, or a member of the village's fire brigade - that usage seems to be more rural than urban, maybe because that particular close-but-not-quite-close relationship happens more frequently in villages) -- Ferkelparade &pi; 09:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So, you'd use it when referring to people whom you know well but would still siezen in direct address? Even doing that strikes me as more southern and/or rural than northern and/or urban, where people duzen much more readily. —Angr 10:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a big admirer of the film Heimat, which is set in the Hunsrück. One of the characters describes seeing some Nazi officials, and refers to them as "der Rosenberg, der Frick und der Ley".  Obviously I can't guarantee that such usage is historically accurate, but Edgar Reitz is usually fairly scrupulous about these things.  If so, that would be a non-colloquial, rather formal usage. --Richardrj talkemail 10:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you, FP, I was hoping for your feedback. Would you really say "Der Herr Stefan" or "Die Frau Gabi" (or did you skip over my "first" in "first names"). To me this usage always sounds either somewhat antiquated or sarcastic (or just silly). ---Sluzzelin talk  10:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, I indeed skipped over the "first" part ("Der Herr Richard" is a bit ambiguous because it can also be a last name). With a first name, it indeed has a sarcastic ring to it - I'd use it, for example, when saying "Der Herr Stefan ist mal wieder zu spät" or something like that. Further analyizing my own usage patterns of the last name-no honorific form I mentioned above, it seems to be even more complicated than I first thought - I would say "der Stoiber" or "der Beck", but not "der Bush" or "der Putin". The phrasing seems to imply a certain one-of-us-ness and a reduction of distance/authority, although it does not necessarily imply my being personally acquainted with the person in question -- Ferkelparade &pi; 10:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Honesty and truthfullness
Can anyone provide me with examples from which I might derive the difference between honesty and truthfulness? -- Taxa  (talk) 09:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, our article on truthfulness currently just redirects to honesty. :-)  The wiktionary articles don't seem to make much distinction either (honest, truthful).  I'm not sure myself, can you see anything in these links that's helpful?  -- tiny plastic Grey Knight   &#x2296;  13:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, maybe stating a reality versus stating what the reality implies? -- Taxa  (talk) 01:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say that truthfulness implies empirical, exact truth, whereas honesty assesses your intent or degree of truthfulness. For example, a person in some situation who will cause someone great pain if they tell the truth that a "white lie" would avoid, may still, after making the lie, be considered an honest person but they would never be said to have acted with truthfulness as to the particular act of lying. I'm not sure that I'm making any sense:-(--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The part about pain is highly relevant to the particular case I have in mind and fits very well. There was truthfulness: the plaintiff stated the truth when he said he was not sure if it was the same dog. The judge thanked the plaintiff for his honesty, however. -- Taxa  (talk) 01:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd agree (with your reasoning, rather than that you're not making sense). You could perhaps argue that truthfulness requires an (explicit or implied) question. For example, suppose that I find a wallet in the street and post it back to its owner with everything that was inside. I've been honest, but I don't think I've necessarily been truthful (or untruthful). On the other hand, if someone asks if it's my wallet and I say, "No I'm going to return it to its owner", that might be truthful - but if I then remove all the cash before posting it off, I haven't been honest. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 16:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It sounds a lot like you are saying that honesty regards the relationship you have with yourself whereas truthfulness regards the relationship you have with others? -- Taxa  (talk) 01:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this is an unintentional trick question, and "honesty" and "truthfulness" mean the same thing - telling (or evidencing in some way) the truth. People are just arbitrarily assigning one type of truthfulness to "honesty" and another type of truthfulness to "truthfulness". -- Beland (talk) 00:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can give your honest opinion of someone's behaviour, standards or morality, but that isn't necessarily expressing the "truth", because some things are inherently subjective. Example: I can say you're a wonderful person; that would be an honest statement.  But is it the truth?  Who can say?  --   JackofOz (talk) 00:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"To be, or not to be" ... what?
Is there an implied complement in Hamlet's "to be, or not to be" question? If so, what is it? (In other words, to be or not to be what?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.249.253 (talk) 13:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * To be as in to exist, to be alive rather than dead. The rest of the soliloquy provides the needed context.  See To be or not to be, especially the "interpretations" section. -Elmer Clark (talk) 13:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The traditional interpretation is that he's contemplating suicide - will I or won't I. --  JackofOz (talk) 07:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, in Hamlet's case it would have been "Won't I or will I", but that sounds dumb. --  JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Latin term for 'Inquiring Human'
The term 'homo sapien' means wise or knowing human' as I understand it. What equivalent term would refer to humans as questioning or inquiring beings? I am looking for a term that shifts from having knowledge to seeking knowledge. Gender neutrality is desireable if possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philousian (talk • contribs) 15:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * First, you mean homo sapiens; the S is not a plural ending.


 * My first thought is homo inquisitor. Cassell's Latin Dictionary translates inquisitor as an inquirer, a spy, an investigator, or in law someone who searches for evidence to supposed an accusation.  "Man the inquirer" sounds exactly like what you want.  (Note: homo is "man" in the gender-neutral sense.) An alternative to inquisitor would be also quaesitor, meaning an investigator, an inquirer, especially a judicial investigator.


 * Both of these are nouns, whereas sapiens is an adjective, but I don't think that's important: species names use either format. It might be argued that the -or ending is masculine and therefore undesirable since Latin would substitute -rix for a female, but Cassell's does not list any female equivalents, so perhaps the -or versions would be used for women too.  Cassell's also does not list any adjectival forms (which would certainly be gender-neutral if modifying homo), although from the corresponding verbs we can guess that they might be inquisitiens and quaerens respectively.


 * --Anonymous, 16:58 UTC, June 19, 2008.


 * Cassell doesn't list those because they are just the present participles of the verbs. Also, it is "inquirens" (which is just in- + quaerens, really). You could also use "studiosus", which is inquisitive in an academic sense. Our own word "curious" comes from "curiosus", but I think that has connotations of snooping or spying in a bad sense. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is homo scrutator. Deor (talk) 02:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy text for assessing penmanship
Can someone point me to some short text that can be used to assess mastery of handwriting? Each upper and lowercase letter should appear at least once and, ideally, the text should be short. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.249.253 (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" is the oldest of the old standards. Getting all the capitals in is going to be tough, unless there's lots of proper names (or 26 separate sentences?)  --Danh 70.59.79.230 (talk) 00:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * and if you make it "jumps" you get an "s" as well. Is this for calligraphy, or clarity of handwriting? The handwriting article shows just that phrase. For calligraphy, they could write it as given, then do an upper case version. Another "text" is like font samples where the person would write the whole alphabet in lower case, then again in upper case. You don't get the flow of letters connected, but if you add the fox jumps one in lower case, it would indicate their level of competency. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The either dumb or unimaginative Microsoft Windows Portuguese translating team apparently couldn't come up with a sentence of their own to satisfy the purpose of showing each and every single letter of the alphabet in one sentence. So they just translated the brown fox sentence into "a rápida raposa castanha salta em cima do cão lento", which you may now read whenever you open those files showing samples of fonts in the Portuguese MS Windows. How stupid is that, the sentence doesn't even have the five vowels for God's sake.  Hús  ö  nd  22:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If they had just gone to Wikipedia's article Pangram and searched for "Portuguese" they would have found some, too! —Angr 08:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can't find a suitable text, you can always craft a lorem ipsum with the properties you desire. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 21:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"ultrahydrophobicity"
What does "ultrahydrophobicity" mean:

"This property of self-cleaning ultrahydrophobicity is known as the Lotus effect"

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuticle

?68.148.164.166 (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Extremely hydrophobic. --Bowlhover (talk) 18:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

"periareolar"
What does "periareolar" mean:

"The areas where terminal hair may grow are the periareolar areas (nipples),"

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chest_hair#Patterns_and_characteristics ?

I know it says nipples in parentheses, but that's just an overgeneralization.68.148.164.166 (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Periareolar means the area surrounding the areola, or the pigmented disc surrounding the nipple. The periareolar areas are circular areas along the edges of the areolae.  Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) From peri- (greek prefix meaning around) and areola, meaning (the area) around the areola. Pallida  Mors  20:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)