Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 June 21

= June 21 =

Desk officer
In my dictionary it says: "A military officer who is not assigned to active duty". However, I found the word in a civil context. What does this person do? GoingOnTracks (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Depends. It seems to be a job title that anyone can use, e.g. the police, medical staff, other. Heck, we here could probably start calling ourselves (reference) desk officers. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyone can use it? Shouldn't you at least work on a desk to be a "desk officer"? GoingOnTracks (talk) 13:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily. I've come across the term in government.  Within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Australia), there's a different "desk" dealing with each different overseas country or region.  Some "desks" are probably entire floors of people, e.g. those covering our major trading partners, USA, UK, Japan etc.  Other "desks" are smaller groups, or even just one person, e.g. Andorra.  If you ring the department enquiring about some aspect of our relations with Country X, they'll "put you through to the appropriate desk officer".  As for working at an actual desk, I believe the usual expression these days is "work station", but old terminology dies hard.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I suppose a desk officer needs a desk about as much as a cabinet minister needs a cabinet ;-) -- Q Chris (talk) 07:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

name of drawing
How do you call this kind of drawing? I mean a drawing when an object has been cut in the middle. GoingOnTracks (talk) 04:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a cross section. - Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 04:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Cross section" is commonly used that way, but there is also a more precise usage where "section" alone has that meaning ("section" comes from a Latin word meaning a cut), and in that usage a cross section is specifically one where the cut goes across the object the short way. In that case a lengthwise cut is called a "longitudinal section", like this one: Image:75mmGun1897M1LongitudinalSection.jpg.  --Anonymous, 05:10 UTC, June 21, 2008.


 * I'd call it a sectional view. --71.162.233.193 (talk) 22:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

operative trauma Talk:Penile plethysmograph
What does "operative trauma" mean? Please see operative trauma Penile plethysmograph and Talk:Penile plethysmograph. Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 05:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure, but my guess is that it refers to an injury caused by a surgery. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 12:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"bulk-producing"
What does "bulk-producing" mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamucil?68.148.164.166 (talk) 06:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure either, but the term "bulk" is used a lot in the Dietary fiber article. The Wiktionary article bulk says it just means fiber (in food). —Angr 07:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just corrected that Wiktionary entry: the fiber itself is not bulk; rather, bulk is the result of water retained by the fiber in food or food supplements. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In this context, the stool is of greater volume ("bulk"), with the therapeutic effect of stimulating, thus facilitating, its passage. Reader, please note: While the Wikipedia Ref Desk does not provide medical information, I will add: in some medical conditions, the use of a bulk-producing laxative may be inappropriate or harmful. It would be advisable to ask specific questions on the manufacturer's website, and to consult a physician regarding particular symptoms. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Value of a book
What is the English word for the value of rare books (in French : la cote)? Does anyone know of a good site that gives them? Fanx. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't expect that there's an English word specifically for the "value of a book". You would need to use general terms like "price", "cost", "value", "worth", etc. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you want to know the prices that dealers are asking for books (which may or may not bear much relationship to the books' values), this site is a good place to look. Deor (talk) 16:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "La cote" in French is used for many things (stock shares, collectibles etc.) but in English, people simply use "price", or in specific contexts: "quote" or "quotation" like in Financial quote (this is very rare in a normal conversation).--Lgriot (talk) 08:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

unusual declension of the Latin noun aedes
In Reading Latin: Text by Jones and Sidwell, on page 44, there is a stage direction "Bacchidēs ad aedīs regrediuntur." This comes from a heavily adapted excerpt from Plautus' Bacchides. I've diligently checked the original, and the phrase does not appear there, but there is a parallel phrase with the word "aedes" (with no macron, as these are unmarked). It appears to me as though Jones and Sidwell have got it wrong - aedēs is a plural noun, third declension, so there should be no form 'aedīs'. From the context (the preposition 'ad' takes the accusative), it should surely be "aedēs." Why did they not write this? Am I totally missing something??? Thanks in advance, 203.221.126.174 (talk) 16:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The ending -īs in the accusative plural is characteristic of third-declension masculine and feminine i-stems (more so in earlier periods; it was pretty much replaced by -ēs in later times). Lewis & Short have an example from Plautus' Casina: "insectātur omnēs domī per aedīs" (used to illustrate the use of aedis in the sense "room"; macrons added for clarity). Deor (talk) 16:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Deor. You seem to know your Latin, though unfortunately your user page doesn't tell me much about you (though I guess neither does mine). If you know this kind of thing, can I ask if you are aware of any websites or reference works on these kinds of spelling and grammar changes? Studying them in depth would be useless for me (I'm La-1 at the moment) but having the reference would save a lot of frustration, so I could tackle works which are above me, without suffering unduly from the fog of misunderstanding. 203.221.126.174 (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Perseus Project has Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar online here, which you should find useful. If you open the section on third-declension i-stems and scroll down to the subsection "Summary of i-Stems," you'll see that it begins "The i-declension was confused even to the Romans themselves"; so you shouldn't feel frustrated. Deor (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I should add that you may want to procure a Latin grammar in book form (the aforementioned one by Allen & Greenough and Gildersleeve & Lodge's Latin Grammar are popular among students), since you'll find the index—not included in the online version—useful for finding things. Deor (talk) 17:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe even the famous beginning to Caesar's Gallic War is uncertain in this regard: IIRC, some manuscripts read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres", with the Classical -ēs ending of the accusative plural, while others read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partis tris", with the early -īs ending. —Angr 19:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Aeneid is also full of these. I thought, however, that -is had a short vowel, and -es had a long one; so Virgil used -is when the meter called for it. But perhaps I am misremembering. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Etymologically at least, -īs with a long i is expected since it comes from *-ins and the loss of the n caused compensatory lengthening. —Angr 10:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you all very much :):), that's a very useful set of answers. One final quick one, based on Deor's first answer: what exactly is an i-stem? Pardon me if it's on page 1 of Allen and Greenough; I will get around to checking there, but my dial up is slow, and it's past midnight here. I'm assuming from the context it means the first letter after the stem in the nominative is "i", as with aed-is, but that means that the "i" itself isn't part of the i-stem, which is quirky. Great to have so many other Latin freaks on the wiki, :) 203.221.127.50 (talk) 17:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooops, just read Deor's second post more carefully, and in any case, I've managed to get onto the Allen and Greenough page, and it does go into what these things are. I'll get back with more q's if it's confusing. Thanks for the help folks. 203.221.127.50 (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Chinese grammar
In Chinese, "The car is yellow" would be translated to "这辆汽车是黄色的" (Pinyin: zhè liàng qì chē shì huáng sè de). My understanding is that the 的 (de) is an adjectival suffix; without out it the sentence would mean that the car is the actual colour yellow instead of yellow in colour.

Assuming the above is correct, then why, for example, if I was pointing at a yellow car and wanted to say "It is yellow" would it be 它是黄色 (Pinyin: tā shì huáng sè). i.e. Why is there no 的 (de)? Wouldn't that then mean that I was pointing at the colour yellow? --RMFan1 (talk) 19:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't answer your question, but it reminds me of A white horse is not a horse... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] AnonMoos (talk) 19:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "noun+shì+adjective+de" is a fixed construction. You use this, or simply "noun+adjective" without a copula (as in many other languages). People still understand you if you omit de, though it sounds unnatural. Of course nobody will think that you mean "the car is the actual colour yellow", since it makes no sense. Btw, in natural speech a pronoun is usually not used for an inanimate object.--K.C. Tang (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * See also the Wikipedia article on Chinese_adjectives. --71.162.233.193 (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I would have said 这是黄色的 if I was pointing at a yellow car. If I said 这是黄色, I would be saying "This is [the colour] yellow." It would be, by no means, ungrammatical, but it has a different meaning. You can leave out the 色 in many situations, but the 的 is usually only left out when the adjective is not a predicate, and governing noun is a short, familiar word and not confusible with compounds. Steewi (talk) 01:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The one without "de" would be saying that "the car is the colour yellow" literally. It wouldn't have made sense to any Chinese if you said it. Adding "de" to the end is the way of turning noun to adjective in Chinese.--Faizaguo (talk) 11:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)