Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 June 7

= June 7 =

Vowel in "hören"
Is the ö in "hören" pronounced /œ/ or /ø/? 76.195.7.166 (talk) 02:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I don't do IPA but it's like the "ur" in turf. Depending on local pronunciation the "e" is mostly silent, particularly in Northern Germany. --70.91.165.182 (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation of "turf" may vary by accent, but if ö is pronounced like how I pronounce the "u" in turf, then it'd be /ɜ/.  Kal  (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (after edit conflict) I hear the vowel in hören as, and that in 'turf' as . --Lambiam 04:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * According to Duden, hören has long . —Angr 08:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking for a word.
It's a word that I know exists I ran across it once clicking on the Random article link. I've tried various search patterns and reverse dictionary's, but no luck.

The best definition that I can give of this is: It's a word that describes a person that thinks that they are totally, without question, correct and yet they are completely wrong. [Special:Contributions/24.253.245.8|24.253.245.8]] (talk) 08:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Anthony


 * I tried a reverse dictionary through onelook.com and came up with some possible ideas. (www.onelook.com is my favorite online dictionary because it lists a few defs with usage examples but also links to other dictionary's definitions, which is excellent for really obscure or uncommon technical words)(note: blatant copypasting of defs present) 71.77.4.75 (talk) 22:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Deluded - having a having belief in something which is really untrue; misguided. To delude oneself is to to fool yourself into believing something is true because you want it to be true, when it is actually not true. Duped is somewhat similar in definition


 * You could also check the following
 * Specious: appearing to be true but really false. The claim that the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky is specious, the reality is that is actually slightly blue, not colorless.|
 * Sophistic: (similar def to specious, but less commonly used) clever-sounding but flawed: clever-sounding and plausible but based on shallow or dishonest thinking or flawed logic. A sophist is someone tho is sophistic.
 * Ostensible - intended for display, open to view; being such in appearance, plausible rather than demonstrably true or real. "His ostensible purpose was charity, his real goal popularity"
 * Hypocrisy (or hypocrite when referring to a hypocritical person): The claim, pretense, or false representation of holding beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not actually possess. A hypocrite is a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion, or person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. Ex- practice what you preach or you will be a hypocrite.


 * Q: is George Costanza a hypocrite, or meta-delusional? "Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." A conman might meet the definition of believing what they do is correct while it's completely wrong, but then we're getting into examples of what you mean. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A: George Constanza? Probably both (that comes easy for a neurotic person). :) But as for the original question, I think delusion is the only adequate term that has been mentioned. All others are simply intentional deceptions used to fool others, not self-deceptions. Kreachure (talk) 01:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC) PS.
 * Beware of oncoming joke: Bush-like. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Mumpsimus mump'si-mes, n (A blunder for Latin sumpsimus, we have received)
 * A view stubbornly held even when shown to be wrong; one holding such a view. In an old story, it's said that an ignorant priest, knowing the sound of the Latin Mass but not speaking the language, said the meaningless 'mumpsimus' instead of 'sumpsimus'. When corrected, he is said to have replied, "I will not change my old mumpsimus for your new sumpsimus". This learned joke has lasted five centuries in the form of this fine-sounding word.
 * copypaste from (http://phrontistery.info/favourite.html). 71.77.4.75 (talk) 03:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

German word oder "Es handelt sich hier um.."
Hi, I'm revising some phrases for an upcoming German exam and one of them is "Es handelt sich hier um", and a phrase I made with it was (the rather simplistic) "Es handelt sich hier um wo unsere Zukunft liegt." Is the word order here right? My word order is generally pretty awful.. 79.72.233.136 (talk) 10:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The word order is okay, but it sounds weird to me because "es handelt sich um" is usually followed by a noun or noun phrase, and in your sentence it's followed by a subordinate clause. "Es handelt sich hier um unsere Zukunft" sounds more natural to me, though I'm not a native speaker. —Angr 11:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It occurs to me that if you do want to use a subordinate clause as the object, you have to change "um" to "darum" and add a comma after it: "Es handelt sich hier darum, wo unsere Zukunft liegt" might be better. —Angr 11:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * user:Angr is entirely correct. The clause following the phrase "Es handelt sich hier um" must not commence with the "wo".  Both of her alternatives "Es handelt sich hier um unsere Zukunft" and "Es handelt sich hier darum, wo unsere Zukunft liegt" are perfectly acceptable German.
 * Basically, the construct is: "Es handelt sich hier um" +, where object, as stated, should be a noun or noun group in the accusative.
 * If you want to use a question as a subclause, you may select the phrase "Die Frage ist hier..." or "Es fragt sich..." --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much!! 79.72.165.181 (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Improving accent
What is the name of a professional who helps you improve your accent? Are there exercises for it? How can we improve our diction (in our native language and foreign language).GoingOnTracks (talk) 13:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Elocution lessons' is the name of the lessons you would take. I am not sure of what the actual instructor is called.--ChokinBako (talk) 13:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Elocutionist' is one possibility. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 14:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * According to this, you are right.--ChokinBako (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Voice coach, dialect coach, voice training, dialect training? Actors use these. It's good to have trainer because just listening doesn't tell you how to compose your mouth or know which part of the tonge or throat is used to make a sound that is authentic. Trivia moment here, but apparently Australians say "much" with the back of the tongue slightly raised so that it borders on "match". Julia Rossi (talk) 23:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Language in a can?

 * http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/spacefood2.htm
 * http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/tongue.jpg

The last image is a Russian-made canned "language". Did they feed the cosmonauts words? -- Toytoy (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Doesn't 'Язык' also mean 'tongue', as in the body part? My dictionary seems to think it does. --ChokinBako (talk) 15:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It means both the tongue of the mouth and tongue as in language. Lots of languages have the same word for both. —Angr 15:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, we all make mistakes, especially when it's in a foreign tongue.--ChokinBako (talk) 15:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They are quite delectable. Unless, of course, you don´t want to eat what already has been in somebody else`s mouth.  Mind you, some people eat eggs... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you've eaten a fur burger once or twice in your life. What's wrong with eggs? :)--ChokinBako (talk) 22:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Do I olfactorily detect a red herring hidden in your message or are you choking, Bako, having poked your nose into exotic hirsute flora of Down Under regions? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The origin of the term RIP when used to describe a computer generated printout
In government offices it is common to reference a computer printout or report as a RIP. No one seems to know how this term came to be used or what the origin of the term is. Any help? Charmstr (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a guess, but "Report In Print"?--ChokinBako (talk) 17:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Another guess: printouts used to come on perforated paper that one had to physically tear, or rip, apart. --  JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Really Important Paper'?--ChokinBako (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it means "Raster Image Processor" (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci214294,00.html) 71.77.4.75 (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Referring to words
Is there a difference between the terms grade and stage with respect to cancer classification? vs. Is there a difference between the terms 'grade' and 'stage' with respect to cancer classification?. Perhaps the latter is more clear, but can either one be said to conform the rules of the English language better than the other? Seans Potato Business 17:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a crosspost from the Science RefDesk. It's been answered there.--ChokinBako (talk) 18:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No it isn't. The question arose in my head while I asked the question on the Science Reference desk, but if you look closely, the question asked here is quite distinct. Seans Potato Business 18:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I see. Well, as far as punctuation is concerned, the latter would be better, as you would need the inverted commas.--ChokinBako (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'The rules of the English language', insofar as they exist, do not pronounce on the matter, though particular style guides may. But to quote from Use-mention distinction, "In written language, mentioned words or phrases often appear between quotation marks ("Chicago" contains three vowels) or in italics (When I refer to honey, I mean the sweet stuff that bees make), and some authorities insist that mentioned words or phrases must always be made visually distinct in this manner. Used words or phrases (much more common than mentioned ones) do not bear any typographic distinction." --ColinFine (talk) 22:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Full stop before/after quotation mark
Let's say I wanted to use quotation marks to emphasise the last three words "of this sentence". Did I put the full stop in the right place? I've come across both many times. Is it a British/American issue? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. British usage is to put a full stop (period) inside quotes only if it logically belongs there, i.e. if it's part of the quote. American usage is to put the tiniest punctuation marks (periods and commas) inside quotation marks regardless of whether they logically belong there, though more substantial punctuation marks (colons, semicolons, exclamation points, and question marks) go outside the quotation marks if they don't belong to the quote. —Angr 22:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * See also Quotation mark.--Shantavira|feed me 06:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Chinese character 枚
The dictionaries Ive looked at give the meaning of this character as "stalk of shrub, trunk of tree" but I have also been told that it is a measure word for a noun. Is this true? Can different nouns have the same measure word? --212.120.247.132 (talk) 22:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Assuming it is Japanese, I have heard that there are different words used to count different types of objects. I think it is similar to English expressions like a "handfull" of raisins, or a "dash" of pepper, "sheets" of paper. Using this totally awesome japanese translation site (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) I came up with the defintion:
 * 枚 【まい】 (ctr) counter for flat objects (e.g. sheets of paper)
 * and additional expressions using that character to count cloth, bills (as in money), petals, flakes, paper; so it seems the answer is yes to the second question. 71.77.4.75 (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I forgot Chinese and Japanese, along with other languages, shared the same characters. I meant the chinese character. --212.120.247.132 (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer to your first question is yes. Your second question was 'can different nouns have the same measure word?' The answer is yes, whether it be Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Malaysian, or whatever. After all, if each noun had its own individual measure word, it would make the language extremely difficult even for native speakers. That is why they are used to count objects that have some sort of similarity, like, in this instance, flat objects.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There are very few measure words in Chinese, which by definition means that many nouns must have the same measure words. Same in English, of course: a gaggle of geese may be unique, but a bunch of flowers, clothes or idiots is pretty common (no offense intended; its the example that came to mind!).DOR (HK) (talk) 03:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it can be used as a word of measurement. In fact, it's more commonly used as a unit of measurement. It doesn't really have an English equivalent, but it's usually used for small countable objects, such as stamps and medals (it's the most correct measurement for stamps and medals, actually- “这版里有四枚邮票” (this edition has a total of four stamps), “中国队赢得了五枚金牌” (The Chinese team won five gold medals).) To answer your second question, yes, but some unit of measurement is more common and correct that others on specific things. In this case, both medals and stamps can be used with the generic 个 or 张, but it's more correct to use 枚.Cecikierk

Is there a word for this: a noun for the place where a child has been raised vs. born?
I am looking for a word sort of like birthplace which refers to the place where a person has been born, but I am seeking a noun which describes where a person was raised. "Hometown" is in the right direction but is too specific. If none can be found will the friendly ref desk personnel suggest novel words which could fulfill this definition? 71.77.4.75 (talk) 23:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find any real word or expression, so I'm gonna go with "nurturing place". (Okay, so it's not a word, but I think it'd get the job done if no better candidate is found. :) Kreachure (talk) 00:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Place of nurture' would be better. 'Nurturing place' could easily mean the place where the person in question nurtures others. Gerunds are funny in that way.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you're right. "Place of nurture" sounds much nicer too, especially compared to "place of birth". (Malditos gerundios! XD ) Kreachure (talk) 01:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and 'Spanish Native Language Person' should really be 'native speaker of Spanish'. :)--ChokinBako (talk) 01:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Formative years" exists but can't find a formative place. Likewise "grew up in..." Otherwise hometown applies to where born, or where grew up, or where lives. Julia Rossi (talk) 11:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I would not consider 'hometown' to be a reference to where one lives, if one lives away from the place they were born or the place they grew up in. I was born in Liverpool, UK, but grew up in Huyton, just outside Liverpool. I have lived in many places since then, but when I said 'my hometown' to anyone, it meant either Huyton or Liverpool (because no-one had heard of Huyton).--ChokinBako (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Italian swears
Hi all - can anyone give me a list of swear words - profanities - curses - general exclamations of surprise/shock/dismay - that an Italian/Venetian might have employed in the late 16th Century?

Grazie!

Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few: --212.120.247.132 (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * shit &mdash; merda
 * fuck &mdash; cazzo
 * bitch &mdash; stronza, troia


 * I'm not realy sure if that is what the OP is asking for. That's just modern Italian swear words. --ChokinBako (talk) 00:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This is also why Finns should avoid saying Katso merta ("Look at the sea") while in Italy. J I P  | Talk 05:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't there be scope for combined innocent words to make profane cursings against one's illegitimate birth, incestual and bestial habits, low upbringing, low character, bearing of despicable diseases, source of foul smells, spurious criminal tendencies, corruption of the saints and bringing down the family lineage (at least)? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I forgot the one that must be centuries old, in response to this: Mama mia! Are you running your researches past a few Venetians Adambrowne? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (outdent) Florio's dictionary (which I think I may have linked you to before (scanned online here: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/)) has some swear words in it (surprisingly!). It is somewhat searchable here: http://archimedes.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/archim/dict/hw - I found furfantare and its derivations, fuorsennato, and fottere for a good start —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That's very helpful - I can use all of that, thanks everyone - and yes, had forgotten about Florio's dictionary (my Favourites folder is much too big and unweildy) - so thanks especially for that, Steewi - found a section called 'Interjections of Grief &c.' - good stuff - but I have to ask, what does furfantare etc mean? Adambrowne666 (talk) 00:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It meant 'to act roguishly', and its derivations included roguish, rogue, etc. http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/215small.html has the entry. Steewi (talk) 01:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The classic 'Va fa'n culo!' has a Venetian variant: 'Ti ho in culo!' Rhinoracer (talk) 13:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Rhino, that's a good one - and thanks, too, Julia - I'd assumed there was no Venetian community here in Melbourne, Aus, but maybe I'm wrong - I'll check it out.