Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 11

= May 11 =

Deafblindness
This might be better asked in the Science section, I'll move it if that's the case. I may inadvertently be offensive in my remarks. Please forgive my ignorance. I've recently been thinking about deafblindness from birth, and how the children learn to communicate. Would I be correct in assuming that they would always learn some sort of tactical sign language first, before other forms of communcation (like Braille)? Or are there other ways to achieve communication with a deafblind baby? If the baby isn't experiencing other unrelated developmental delays, about how old may the age of onset be? Is there a large difference when compared to deaf or blind babies? The deafblind article gives a link to Tacpac, but it's still not clear to me if that is used to help speed up the onset of communication in normally developing children, or just in cases where there are developmental delays. Thanks in advance. 222.158.118.97 (talk) 08:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You probably are better off on the science ref desk based on some the questions you asked. But since there is overlap, see what you get here, then after that try asking on the science desk as long as you don't double post at the same time. For your question about onset well that would certainly depend on the condition that led to the deafblindness. I don't know much about what conditions would lead to it other than from reading about Helen Keller, but that's just one example. From looking at our deafblind article, it looks like true congenital (at birth) deafblindess is very rare. Other than that the age of onset would completely depend on what condition leads to the deafblindness. Most people that are deafblind are not 100% and 100% deaf, so they would often have at least just barely enough sight or hearing to learn to communicate with hearing or other aids for example. A textbook I grabbed says that one estimate (from DB link was 7000 deafblind students ages 6-21 in the US in 2006. That is including students with various ranges of vision and deafness and for reference there are 50 some million children that age in the US. For more info a google search for "deafblind" got a number of sites that may be useful to you including a resource run by a deafblind person. Also the external links in the deafblindness article should be able to help you. - Taxman Talk 22:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Close - But no Cigar.
Where does this saying come from and what does it mean?

x —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.210.227 (talk) 14:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * One would assume that it comes from the patter of carnival game operators—in particular, those of the "Ring the Bell" game, winners of which used to receive a cigar as their prize. If a prospective he-man sent the indicator nearly to the top, but didn't get it to go all the way up to ring the bell, his effort would be "Close … but no cigar." As for what it means, it means that someone's nearly achieved an objective, without actually succeeding. A similar expression I've heard is "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." Deor (talk) 17:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And, by George, I see that the latter expression I quoted gets a mention in our article Horseshoes. Deor (talk) 17:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not wishing to contradict Deor, but merely to add another interpretation I heard. I was told it originated from the traditions of a father waiting outside the room during labor and sharing cigars with others present after the child was born.  When someone came out of the room they'd use that saying either when the child hadn't come out yet or as a gentle way of indicating a stillbirth.  --71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yikes! That's an odd definition of "gentle"; they should follow with "... but the good news is you can save on the coffin by using the cigar box!" Matt Deres (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, this page and this one, among others, support the origin I gave. The first one cites what it says is the first appearance of the expression in print. Deor (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Question on Japanese counters
Suppose you want to say "There is only one God" in Japanese. What counter would you use with the "one"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.228.115 (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You'd use "hitori" (一人). So something like 神が一人しかいません. Kami ga hitori shikaimasen. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Hashira" (柱) is also the general counter for gods and spirits. Perhaps a native speaker knows if it can be used in a monotheistic (Christian or Muslim) context. Paul Davidson (talk) 02:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 神様は一人しかいない. We forgetting the 'sama', boys?--ChokinBako (talk) 18:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

A good comeback
What's a good comeback when someone says to you "Why are you so fat"? Mr Beans Backside (talk) 17:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Because every time I %$^& your wife she gives me a biscuit!"
 * "I may be fat, but you're ugly and I can diet"
 * "I am a American, I was born and raised here."
 * "My weight can be fixed. Unfortunately, your face can't."
 * "The doctors office has a chart for height and weight, and I discovered...
 * I'm not fat, I'm just short for my weight!"
 * "Because larger clothes are cheaper."
 * "I'm actually Siamese triplets - one set of limbs but three stomachs."
 * "I want to get the world record for weight loss."
 * "Because your Mom likes 'em fat." Makey melly (talk) 17:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "'Cause I eat a lot". Seans Potato Business 20:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Why are you so rude?"  Corvus cornix  talk  21:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * * I keep wondering that myself. Tell me when you've found out, because I really want to know.
 * * I could try to explain all the causes. But that wouldn't work since the one trying to teach you manners has obviously failed. 71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not? hotclaws 00:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Suzette Haden Elgin in The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defensepoints out that verbal attacks similar to this are tricky as answering the question directly carries with it an implicit agreement to the underlying presuppositions. Rather than take the bait, or even dispute the presupposition (which will just turn into an argument), you could turn it into an intellectual debate.
 * It's interesting how people are judgmental of the overweight. Would you say it's a rising form of prejudism?
 * Yes, why is one overweight? I would say it has something to do with an increased sedentary lifestyle in western culture.  Perhaps it is the switch of using cane sugar in our products to high fructose corn syrup.
 * etc.
 * Although if you're looking for zingers then Makey melly's got some good ones. You can also add "I quit smoking."  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  02:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You could also coolly respond with a simple statement of scientific fact: "Because I ingest more calories than I burn." —Angr 07:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Why are you asking?" Because... "Why because...?" So ... "So, what?" Bore them to death.   Julia Rossi (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A word of advice to the OP, you should wait until the next time someone asks you why you're fat. If you knock on their door several days later with your response, you'll look like an obsessive fool rather than a fellow with sharp wit.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  19:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

What language is this in?

 * Moved from other desk. Makey melly (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone tell me what language this page is in. I've tried to translate it with google but it wont work. Makey melly (talk) 16:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would appear to be Turkish, though I might be wrong. Fribbler (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh, just my luck. Google translate doesn't have a Turkish option. Thanks anyway. Makey melly (talk) 17:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Definitely Turkish (not that I know a word of the language). Apart from the general look and feel, the clinchers are the "i"s, some of which are dotted (including capitals - İ), and some of which are not (ı).  --  JackofOz (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus the many links to Galatasaray :-) Fribbler (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus the absence of ə, which would be abundant if it were in Azeri (which also has both dotted and dotless "i"s). —Angr 18:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

lipid
I've always understood the word "lipid" to mean fat in a scientific sense. But could I say "My girlfriend is a bit lipid"? Does it work like that? I remember seeing an episode of the Simpsons where Nelson said "Your epidermis is on show". Mr Beans Backside (talk) 17:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never seen "lipid" used that way. Lipids include fats, but the word is generally not used as an adjective. You might be able to say she has an excessive lipid count (or something similar). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Her body is composed of a higher than normal percentage of adipose tissue." Saying one looks more "lipid" would be like saying someone who works out is looking protein, or a tanned person is very melanin. Fribbler (talk) 20:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In other words, "lipid" is a noun but "fat" in the indicated sense is an adjective. --Anon, 04:44 UTC, May 12, 2008.


 * You could say that she's zaftig.  Corvus cornix  talk  21:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you man the word "Limpid" instead? Astronaut (talk) 10:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you mean "mean" rather than "man"? Eliko (talk) 10:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of "either"
Moved from WP:RD/H. PeterSymonds | talk  20:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC) Does the phrase "two on either side", meaning "two on each side", violate the definition of 'either'? Seans Potato Business 20:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't think so, since it implies that whichever side you pick, there will be two on that side. Fribbler (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't "either" mean one or the other though, and not both? Seans Potato Business 21:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 'Either' can mean "one or the other", OR "both". Although the first meaning is the most common, its sense depends on the context. Thus "two on either side" can have both meanings, as in:
 * "You can put those two on either side" ("one or the other") or
 * "We have two on either side" (both).
 * Thus, this word can be considered one of several self-contradicting words in English. Kreachure (talk) 21:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The explanation behind this phenonemon is as follows:
 * Originally, the word "either" has meant "one of two options", e.g. in: "either A or B".
 * However, when I say: "Choose either one" I'm supposed to mean: "Choose A or B", i.e. both A and B can be chosen! Not at once, but A can be chosen, and B can be chosen!
 * Furthermore, when I say: "You shouldn't do A, and you shouldn't do B", I'm supposed to mean: "You should do neither A nor B", i.e. I'm supposed to mean: "You should avoid doing either A or B". So instead of saying: "You shouldn't do A, and you shouldn't do B", people began to say: "You shouldn't do A, and you shouldn't do B, either".
 * Hence, the speakers began to use "either" with the meaning of "both/and".
 * Eliko (talk) 22:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Variations of "4"-- er, I mean "death" in Japanese
Hi, I wanted to know all the combinations and variations in Japanese using shi (meaning death) as an element, such as senshi, roshi, etc. I hope they're not too many? Friendly romaji appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, neither of the examples you gave use shi (meaning death). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, maybe they're hyphenated, but according to this page, senshi refers to a warrior, accentuating that such warrior may die on the battlefield; and ro-shi is also an expression that means death from old age. The only other "combinations" I know are shi-zen (stillbirth), shi-ni-rei (dead spirit), and ni-shi (double death). Now could you please help me out with others you do consider use shi, please? Kreachure (talk) 23:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

戦死 does actually mean 'death in war', and has nothing to do with 戦士, meaning warrior (same pronunciation, different meaning).--ChokinBako (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

死 （shi) has several compounds. Some of them are: 死骸 shigai (dead body, corpse), 死罪 shizai (crime which deserves death penalty; capital punishment), 死神 shinigami (death god), 死刑 shikei (death penalty, capital punishment). As for the word you mentioned, Stillbirth is 死産 shizan, not shizen. 420 may be read as shi-ni-rei and matches yutō (or kun-on) reading of 死霊 (dead spirit) but it is usually read as shiryō (in on reading). 二死 nishi (two deaths) usually refers to "two outs" in baseball. The page you linked mentions shinjū but it is 心中 shin-jū and not related to 死 shi, though the term itself is related to suicide. --Kusunose 01:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There are probably hundreds of kanji compounds containing the character shi meaning "death". I think what you're looking for is words that contain that character but aren't overtly about death. The closest I could find in my dictionary were a few involving metaphorical death, like shikyuu, literally "dead ball" and meaning "dead ball" (in baseball). Shi is also used as a counter for outs in baseball. I don't think there's much of a case to be made for some special perspective on death in Japanese vocabulary. As ChokinBako said, senshi meaning "soldier" and senshi meaning "death in war" are just (spoken) homonyms, and people are very good at disambiguating homonyms on the fly without even noticing they're doing it. You can have a conversation about dying without thinking about dyeing. -- BenRG (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On the topic of Japanese homophones, I've heard that Japanese speakers will sometimes draw characters in the air while speaking to disambiguate their homophones. Can anyone confirm or deny? —Angr 07:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Angr, I deny. We don't draw characters. Just explain them in the conversation. Or the listener asks which one. Oda Mari (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Angr, it's only us foreigners that do that. It's a pointless activity, because the person you are talking to gets a mirror image, even if they ARE looking at what you are doing. It's easier to just say it.--ChokinBako (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've seen people do that, and sometimes write the kanji on their hands, too. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

More Japanese death
I found a bunch of expressions related to shi (死) over at Wiktionary, and after translating them, I'm curious about a couple:


 * 1. 死活. What exactly does this mean? Is it popular, or obscure?


 * 2. 死相. I don't know what this refers to. A spirit? A curse? Is it used fairly regularly in situations of dying, or is it obscure too?

Thanks again in advance, Kreachure (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 死活 shikatsu (life and death) is a go term; see life and death. Shikatsu itself is rarely used outside of go but 死活問題 shikatsu mondai (a matter of life and death; a question of vital importance) is commonly used. --Kusunose 19:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 死相 could be translated as the seal of death or the shadow of death. Like 'he has the seal of death on his face.' Take the 相 in the word as face or looks . There are too many 死 words as BenRG pointed out. I add some more. 自然死、事故死、死人、死体、病死、死因、獄死、中毒死、溺死、水死、安楽死、餓死、不死、瀕死、急死、客死、焼死、即死、起死、検死、殉死、変死、仮死、必死、決死、一死、縊死、脳死、老死、凍死、爆死、半死、墜死、悶死、轢死　etc. Oda Mari (talk) 15:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all the instances. I guess I'm off to translating them now... Kreachure (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)