Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 22

= May 22 =

How can i get my first car trick my ride
Question moved to the Miscellaneous Reference Desk.

Feminine counties
I just came across the following sentence:
 * Northumberland's county flower is the Bloody Cranesbill (Geranium sanguineum) and her affiliated Royal Navy ship is her namesake, HMS Northumberland.

Is it customary to attribute the feminine gender to English counties, or is this a Latin/Northumbria thing? Is it customary to do so in encyclopedia articles? It's been there for over a year, but otherwise the article talks about its flag, its landscape, its scenic beauty, its historical significance, and its kilt and tartan. I really stumbled over the her, which is why I'm asking. Thanks. ---Sluzzelin talk  01:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's just a matter of personal taste. 'Her' is used for countries, counties, and ships, and all sorts, but equally 'its' is also used. There is no convention here. I, personally, would prefer 'its', but some people may say otherwise.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think consistency of usage within the article is the paramount consideration. Deor (talk) 04:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That is not actually the question, though, Deor.--ChokinBako (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The OP said that "otherwise the article talks about its flag, its landscape," etc., so I took it that part of the question was whether "her" in the quoted sentence should be changed to "its". Deor (talk) 05:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your answers, Givnan and Deor. Apart from consistency, I'm still not sure I understand this usage of her in an encyclopedia. Does feminising a county (or country, where I've certainly seen it more often) suggest an emotional relationship with the referent? ---Sluzzelin talk  09:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "She" is traditionally used instead of "it" for many objects, including ships, cannon, carriages, tools, boats, some cars, and also more abstract things such as the church, cities, countries and so forth. I believe some sources, such as OED, suggest it's come from the French genders.  But it's usually applied to things men become passionate about or attached to, so perhaps it's a personification or emotional attachment.   Similar concepts are seen in  motherland, alma mater, etc. Not encyclopaediac?  Check out a few ships, (eg RMS Titanic)  Gwinva (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have never come across a British county being referred to as 'she', though. That looks mighty odd and I personally would have no problem with its being struck out. --Richardrj talkemail 10:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (after e.c., and Richard makes me pause again, still this is what I originally intended to post:) Yeah, I even followed the debates on feminising ships on WP.  Coming from a German speaker who uses pronouns in three genders, my irritation might not make that much sense either. The ships already made me pause, but when referring to a political and territorial entitity, "her" just made me think "uh oh" and look for peacock words and POV in that sentence (which of course I didn't find). I'll let it go now - I thank the native speakers for their answers and if this doesn't bother anyone else, then I definitely need to recalibrate my false sensitivities. ---Sluzzelin  talk  10:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I promised, but just to expand slightly: I gather that nautical experts do refer to ships in the feminine form (I admit I have almost no knowledge on this), but do geographers or political scientists refer to Northumberland as "she"? Historians might, though I could interpret this usage as either emotional or ironic. ---Sluzzelin  talk  10:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say it was very unlikely that they do, but then again I don't belong to either of those groups. Here's the diff, by the way, should you want to take it up with the editor concerned. --Richardrj talkemail 11:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Like I said, I would prefer 'its' for counties. 'Her' (or 'she') is not just used for ships, though. I've heard it used for all manner of vehicles that people depend on for a living, even cars.ChokinBako (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is correct for ships, cannon, cars and so forth to use the feminine pronoun in all contexts. In the case of countries (and counties, presumably?) the choice of pronoun differs depending on the context.  For example, when speaking of England physically, the preferred choice is "it" (eg "It contains a number of counties"); but speaking abstractly of the nation, one might say "During England's war with France, her people rallied to the cause". (Thus, there is justification for pronoun use to differ within one article.)  A similar abstract use is seen in Northumbria example; it refers to the abstract entity, rather than the physical composition.  I would suggest it is uncommon usage for counties, but not incorrect.  There may be some historical basis; Northumbria was once a kingdom.  Gwinva (talk) 02:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While it's acceptable to use the feminine pronoun in this way, I would suggest that this is rather outdated and may be inappropriate in many contents. From Grammatical gender:
 * The pronoun "she" is sometimes used to refer to things which contain people such as countries, ships, and cars, or to refer to machines. This, however, is considered a stylistically marked, optional figure of speech. This usage is furthermore in decline and advised against by most journalistic style guides such as the Chicago Manual of Style. Dave w74 (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Footnote formatting
Suppose we have a multi-page article with superscript numbers in it that refer the reader to footnotes at the bottom of each page that provide additional information. Now suppose that there is, say, a quotation at the bottom of page 1 that must be sourced, so we add a superscript number after the quotation and indicate the source at the bottom of the page. However, when we do this, the quotation itself is bumped on to page 2 because of the space taken up by the footnote. But this means that the footnote must be moved from page 1 to page 2 (since it must be on the same page as the quote). But the space left behind by moving the footnote cannot be filled with text, since to do so would move the quotation back on to page 1, returning us to the initial situation. Does this mean that we must leave a large blank space at the bottom of page 1? How is this handled in professional publishing? --BrainInAVat (talk) 03:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not really a language question. Best ask it on the Computer Help Desk.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Publishers handle the problem in various ways. The easiest, if it's practicable, is to get the author to add to or make cuts in the text so that the quotation and the footnote both fit on one of the pages. (This is also a good way of dealing with a "widow"—an unfilled last line of a paragraph at the top of a page.) A footnote can also be run over from one page to the next—that is, the beginning of the note can be set on the first page and the rest, separated from the bottom of the text by a thin rule extending the width of the typeblock, on the next page. Or, if the superscript occurs in the last two lines of a recto page, those two lines (and the note) can be moved to the next page and each page of the spread from which they were taken be set one line short. There's always some way to deal with such things. Deor (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, thanks to the wonders of desktop publishing, when justification is being used (and it usually is), the spaces between the words characters (Think one thing, type another. I swear by it.) in the paragraphs can easily be manipulated with a few simple mouse clicks. If you make the spaces wider, the paragraphs get longer; if you tighten them, they get shorter. There are limits to how far you can push this, of course, and if you're not careful, you get some pretty ugly paragraphs, but when you're smart about it, you can adjust the length of paragraphs surprisingly efficiently, which often helps a lot in situations like this. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Swearing
Why are swear words considered taboos? It's not like they hurt anyone. For example, if someone were to say "poop" (e.g. in the context "I've gotta take a poop"), there is no reason for that person to be punished. However, if they were to say "shit" (e.g. in the context "I've gotta take a shit"), they are much more likely to be punished, even though the words mean exactly the same thing. It just makes no sence to me, and I have yet to get a good explanation.  You're   dreaming   eh?   03:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Human nature, perhaps? Or Human convention? Acceptability (linguistics) is often more complex than grammaticality. --Kjoonlee 03:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Some words develop a taboo during the course of their use, and are replaced by newer words. The older words then either die out or continue to be used with this taboo and vulgar connotation, while the newer words are acceptible. These new words, in turn, develop a taboo during the course of their use, and they are replaced. Thus the cycle continues. This is linguistic evolution.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Zounds! This is a crosspost from the Miscellaneous Desk. There's a good answer there. Paragon12321 (talk) 04:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's here and I'd move it but they've used "fuck" instead, but it's still a crosspost. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

British Accent and indian pronunciation
I am an Indian trying to understand British Accent for a u.k process  call center in India. Even though we are following an English language, ours is non phonetic in aspirated sounds and counting of diphthongs.So in the areas of counting syllable my knowledge is limited to differentiate in to phonetic codes for pronunciation.As far as i have approached Indian teachers their pronunciation is somewhat similar to mine even though they learned English phonetics.They said it to be impossible for an Indian to master english in Oxford sense.So i request to get a link on internet to get the components such as 1.combined sounds in phonetics

2.classification of words based on how to count syllables for oxford pronunciation.

3.How the diphthongs are combined to get the complex sounds produced.

4.How can be the articulation end up for Indians  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twinkle.leelabhai (talk • contribs) 03:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have a link for you, but I will say it's not impossible for an Indian to master the "Oxford pronunciation" (usually called Received Pronunciation or RP), though it is difficult once you're a teenager or older. It's also unnecessary to completely replace your Indian accent with RP; as long as you understand everything that's said to you in English, and your interlocutor understands everything you say to him, that's surely sufficient. —Angr 04:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I imagine that acquiring the accent is a part of job training so that clients do not notice that s/he is calling from India. Although there are lots of people in the UK who speak Indian English, the marketing ploy asks that they try to mimic a more 'native' English accent. Perhaps the article on Indian English and Received Pronunciation will give you something to compare. Otherwise, the best practice you can have is through immersing yourself in UK English, by watching BBC, listening to BBC world, and talking to English people. Short of paying for a dialect coach, that is your best bet. Steewi (talk) 04:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You can train a bit at home. Look for BBC podcasts  or other British native speaker audio sources.  Listen carefully to when they breathe.  Then play a sentence.  Don't say the words, but hum at the same pitch and rhythm as the speaker and try to breathe at the same places as they did.  Record your humming and train till you can match the phrase.  Then say the words.  You'll improve with training regularly.   71.236.23.111 (talk) 05:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (Slightly off topic) You might find our Call centre article useful. Astronaut (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * One of the distinctive qualities of Indian accents to English ears (probably to other British ears too, but I haven't asked any Scots or Welshmen about this) is not the vowels, but the dental and retroflex consonants. Many Indian languages have two distinct series, the dentals such as t̪ ('त' in devanagari) and the retroflex or cerebral consonants such as [ʈ] ('ट'). European languages generally have only a dental series, but in most British varieties of English we use not dentals but alveolar consonants such as [t], which lie in between the two series of Indian languages. All the Indian varieties of English I have heard use the retroflexes to render these sounds, rather than the dentals - and it is this above all that makes the accent sound Indian. If you were to speak English using 'त' rather than 'ट' in all contexts, it would still tend to sound 'foreign' to English ears (depending also on other features), but it would not sound nearly so distinctively 'Indian'. --ColinFine (talk) 12:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Without meaning to belittle – I think I'd notice the pitch contours before the cerebral stops (as retroflex are also called in India). —Tamfang (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Lead me to the truth
When I asked a question at the Science desk, I was referred to this article at The Independent whose heading is "My killer dinner: How a vegetable diet lead to organ malfunction". Is this a Britishism? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I assume you're talking about the use of 'lead'. My first thought was that the lead was a pun, but I think it was just a typo for 'led'. Steewi (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I see this error all the time. I've never quite decided whether people make it by analogy with "read" (present tense) and "read" (past tense) or by thinking "//" and then spelling it the way the name of the metal that is so pronounced is spelled. Deor (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, the spelling is a typo, as the article has nothing to do with lead. Well done, The Independant The Independent, for making sure the world knows that even us Brits can't spell (or hire people who can!). Anyway, I never read The Independant, because the only thing it is independant of is reality. Better reading The Guardian.--ChokinBako (talk) 04:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Two comments: 1. It's the Independent. 2. The Portuguese government is deciding to simplify Portuguese spelling to remove double letters and silent consonants. There is an article on the subject by Marcel Berlins in the Guardian this week. Both lead/led and Independe/ant are evidence for the need of simplification of British spelling! SaundersW (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * My error duly noted and fixed. And I told you The Guardian was better!--ChokinBako (talk) 13:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer the Grauniad too, although it's hardly in a position to assert its superiority on the basis of typographical accuracy. --Richardrj talkemail 13:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A number of years ago, I once read (in The Guardian) that The Guardian had started using a new auto-correct for typos. In the old days when PC was in its infancy and the world had gone ballistic on it, the auto-correct had been programmed to change 'black' to 'Afro-Carribean', and in one article it referred to Nelson Mandela as been the 'Afro-Carribean leader of South Africa', which was hilarious! So, I guess you're right.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's obviously an apocryphal story, though. There are countless perfectly innocent uses of the word black (although the number may be slowly reducing), and no spell-checker in the world is going to want to catch all of them. --Richardrj talkemail 14:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the Guardian style guide (which admittedly might have changed since then) allows 'black' and bans 'Afro-Caribbean'. Algebraist 14:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of the (non-apocryphal, I saw it myself) story in the Yale student newspaper back in the early 1990s discussing the relations between whites and "African Americans" in South Africa. —Angr 16:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I can imagine that someone working on an article that mentioned Mandela and Black persons closer to home might decide to change all of the latter to "Afro-Caribbean" or whatever, forgetting that Mandela was in there too. I've made analogous booboos.  —Tamfang (talk) 03:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Which only goes to show that my story could have been true, too. And I did see it with my own eyes. 1994, it was. I remember because I remember exactly where I was when I read it. --ChokinBako (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the only part of your story that anyone really doubted was that the replacement of "black" with "Afro-Caribbean" was done automatically by computer, rather than manually by a well-meaning but ignorant human being. Otherwise you would also have seen stories about women wearing little Afro-Caribbean dresses to social functions or people listening to the Rolling Stones singing "Paint It, Afro-Caribbean". —Angr 07:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * True, not to mention the Afro-Caribbean Hole in the centre of the galaxy, and the stories of the Afro-Caribbean Shirts running around causing chaos during Crystal Night in Germany just before WW2.--ChokinBako (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, I'm suddenly motivated to go tickle my African American cat. (Egypt is in Africa, right?)  —Tamfang (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Voicing in English phonetics
Hi,


 * 1) Voicing is a distinctive feature in English
 * 2) Aspiration is not, since "spin" can have an aspirated P
 * 3) Pin and bin are distinguished by voicing

Do people all agree on the above? But then,


 * I scream (not apsirated)
 * Ice cream (aspirated)
 * Can these be distinguished by a native speaker?

And also,


 * Initial Bs are devoiced
 * But the chorus of "Beat It" sounds seems to use a fully devoiced stop

So how do people distinguish "beat it" from "Pete it"? --Kjoonlee 06:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "spin" can have an aspirated P Do you mean if it's physically possible? Otherwise English does not have an aspirated stop in spin. Beat it and Pete it are fully distinguishable for me, since /p/ in Pete *is* aspirated. Less confident about I scream ~ ice cream but scream has a longer vowel for me. Ladefoged argues that there is no clear opposition between voiced and voiceless stops in English. They are distinguished rather by aspiration word-initially, and by vowel length elsewhere so that the real difference between words like cap and cab is that the former has a shorter vowel. — Zerida  ☥   06:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that p in Pete is aspirated, but not b in beat. It is true that aspiration is a more reliable distinguishing characteristic in this opposition than is voicing.
 * The k sound in ice cream is aspirated, whereas it is unaspirated in I scream. This is beacuse p, t and k are unaspirated following an s in the same syllable, as in spar, star and scar. Also, the i sounds may differ slightly in the speech of many Canadians and some Americans, because of Canadian raising in ice cream. Joeldl (talk) 06:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, as a Canadian speaker, "ice cream" and "I scream" are definitely distinct, both because of raising and aspiration. But there seems to be more to it than that...like in "ice cream" both words are emphasized, and in "I scream", "scream" has the emphasis. Does that make sense? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Most, if not all of the answer doesn't depend on "native speaker" but on "form where"? I've been to places where there are no significant differences between b and p and all sort of other local oddities. Pronunciation can be limited to a certain ethnic background or distinct location.  Our movers and my "significant other" are both native Atlantans (US, Georgia), but had a lot of trouble understanding each other. I personally would distinguish between "I scream" and "ice cream" not by the "k" sound, but by the stress (on the EAm or I). 71.236.23.111 (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * More info on English voicing contrasts. In utterance-initial position, [+voice] stops have (1) short voice onset time (typically with no phonetic voicing during closure), (2) lower 1st formant transition, (3) weaker stop burst, (4) lower fundamental frequency while [-voice] have (1) long VOT, (2) higher F1, (3) stronger burst, (4) higher f0. In intervocalic position, [+voice] stops have (1) closure voicing, (2) shorter closure duration, (3) longer preceding vowel, (4) lower f0 & F1 while [-voice] have (1) no closure voicing, (2) longer closure duration, (3) shorter preceding vowel, (4) higher f0 & F1. In utterance-final position, [+voi] has (1) longer preceding vowel, (2) variable closure voicing, (3) shorter closure duration, (4) lower f0 while [-voi] has (1) shorter preceding vowel, (2) no closure voicing, (3) longer closure duration, (4) higher f0. These some of the main acoustic cues, but there are more. For example, Leigh Lisker identified 16 different acoustic  differences between English intervocalic [+voi] and [-voi] stops (eg. rabid vs. rapid).


 * The perceptual contrast between [+voi] and [-voi] stops is probably (that is, from what we know now) signaled mostly by the difference between the time of the voicing event with respect to the closure release event, the difference between low frequency energy during or near the closure, and the duration of the stop. In English, the low frequency energy is the lower f0 and F1 in utterance-initial position. In French in this position, the low frequency energy comes from lower f0 (and probably F1 too) as well as voicing during the stop closure.


 * I dont know how I should interpret the "no significant differences between b and p" comment above. Maybe it means that some dialects have VOT differences?


 * The comments about stress are, of course, right. The acoustic correlates of stress are different vowel durations and pitch contours. – ishwar  (speak)  19:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the answers. Yes, I meant that an aspirated "spin" was physically possible. I'm not 100% sure, but aspiration/non-aspiration (when the other is expected) does occur. (A song by Jewel comes to mind, but I can't remember the song or its lyrics...) I do agree that "I scream" and "ice cream" can have different stress, but I'd like to point out that they can also have identical stress if you say "I scream." --Kjoonlee 21:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * California English: vs. . They differ in stress, even under emphatic prosody, vowel quality and vowel length of the /ai/, aspiration & devoicing of the /r/, and degree of labialization (outrounded vs. inrounded) of the /r/. —kwami (talk) 01:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives
What happened to the Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives? Neon Merlin  06:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it was never official, I guess whether it exists or not is whether those "proclaimed" to be "members" still say that they are. Fribbler (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a lostpositives.com, so I guess someone remembers. We have an article unpaired word. -- BenRG (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese translation
Hello, I would like a translation of the second sentence of this Japanese line. The writer, Shinji Orito, is commenting on a song he wrote, and I would like to use it in the song's entry on the article linked. 'Ayu' noted at the beginning is for the character Ayu Tsukimiya, and this song is her theme, as the first sentence states:
 * あゆのテーマ曲です. テーマ曲の中では一番気に入ってるかな・・・パーカスがいい感じに入ったと思います.

And, almost forgot, Orito strangely uses the word パーカス for "percussion", noting the percussion parts of the song.--  十  八  09:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * My take on it: "This is Ayu's theme song. My favourite part of the theme song… I think the percussion is really good." Paul Davidson (talk) 12:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It means "This is Ayu's theme song. This is probably the song I like most out of all the theme songs....I think the percussion is really good."--ChokinBako (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

english language
hera are greek and latin roots. find out at least four words formed from them? psych-mind hydr-water man-hand urb-city audi-hear auto-self bio-life graph-writting phon-sound bi-two —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.223.66.42 (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I hate to be rude, but you could have found them in a dictionary in the time it took to type all that. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Just look in the dictionary and write down everything that begins with 'psych-', 'hydr-', and so on. Don't write 'big', though, for 'bi-', as you might get in trouble.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And I presume they can be in the middle of words too, if necessary. So hydr- could be found in the middle of a word meaning dried up for example. Or urb- might crop up in a small town on the edge of a city? Fribbler (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * When using the dictionary, just check in the part of the entry where it describes the origin of the word to make sure that it is really from your Greek or Latin root. Marco polo (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And for the really lazy student just type your word roots into the "search" window in the side bar and click on "search". Scan through the pages our trusty search engine will offer up. (After all you are studying to become master of a robot slave later in life. ;-)--71.236.23.111 (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and next time you want to ask us something like this, make an effort first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberina 11 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Romanisation of Chinese names
Hi,

I've scoured the many pages on Chinese language, and transliteration of Chinese characters and cannot find a definitive answer to the following.

Is it possible to consistently and accurately transliterate (using Wade Giles or Pinyin) the Chinese characters that represent a Chinese name (both family and given names)?

I understand that names are "romanised" on passports etc - but don't understand how this is achieved. And can the Pinyin transliteration be accurately and consistently "translated" back into Chinese characters?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Juantaniom (talk) 14:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Romanization of Chinese is done phonetically. Because of homophones, transliteration from Chinese into Roman letters is a "lossy" process, even if diacritical marks indicating the tones are used. It is not possible to reliably map a transliterated Chinese name back to its Chinese characters. --72.78.102.134 (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I suspected this was the case but appreciate your speedy responseJuantaniom (talk) 15:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

jv:Wikipedia:Dhiskusi bab basa nl:Wikipedia:Taalcafé


 * If you were to use General Chinese it wouldn't be nearly as lossy, and it being proper name would narrow things down, so you often would be able to revert to characters. In fact, the principal reason for GC was to demonstrate that characters are not necessary for Chinese, and that Chinese can be written in a syllabic or alphabetic form that's just as accessible to the various dialects as characters. But no one uses it. kwami (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, narrowing it down isn't a 1-to-1 mapping still, and while educated guesses can be used for reverting names in many cases, there are still going to be lots of errors due to homophones. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for citing General Chinese, anyway. I suspected (in my ignorance) that such a thing might be possible, and it's a delight to have it confirmed!  —Tamfang (talk) 22:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese! (From a song)
Hi, I've always wanted to know what's being said in Japanese in this song (Fragment from "Floppy Disk", by Pitchshifter, from their "Genius" maxi-single EP). Could someone translate it, pretty please? ^_^ Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't find the lyrics anywhere online, but this page says the ninja vocals are by Makiko Takizowa. SaundersW (talk) 16:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong? Why won't you reply? It's only a 500k mp3, and the site I put it on checks for viruses! Should I put it somewhere else, or in another format? Lyrics for this part of the song don't exist at all, so this is the only way I have to know what's being said in the song! If you won't help me, then could you please point me to someplace that will? Again, please help me out. Kreachure (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is what the girl says. Ask someone to translate. フロッピー・ディスクとはさみ、マッチ、除光液を用意します. 次にフロッピー・ディスクを注意深く二つに開けて、中にあるコットン・カバーを取り外します. そして、木製のナイフなどで、マッチ棒の先をけずって、それをすり鉢などに入れ、粉にします. そのあとにその粉を先ほどのフロッピー・ディスクのうえに均等にばらまきます. そして、フロッピー・ディスクの縁に除光液を塗って、二つをくっつけて、元のように戻します. 最後にそのフロッピー・ディスクをコンピューターの本体に入れます. コンピューターがフロッピー・ディスクを読みとったとき、コンピューターは破壊されます. Oda Mari (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Oda Mari. But I thought a translation was what I had already asked for to you and others here? I hope I'm not misunderstanding something here...? Kreachure (talk) 17:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's instructions on how to destroy a computer with a modified floppy disk, and how to modify a floppy disk to do so. This is a song!??! Here are the words: "Prepare a floppy disk, scissors, matches, and glue. Carefully open the floppy disk into two. Take out the inside cotton cover. Then, with a wooden knife, shave the end of the match, put it into a bowl, and grind it down. Then sprinkle it on the aforementioned floppy disk. Then, cover the sides of the floppy disk with glue and put the two halves back together. Finally, put the floppy disk into the computer. When the computer tries to read the disk, the computer will break." Not very well written lyrics, as it doesn't say what to do with the scissors and doesn't mention the 'wooden knife' in the 'items to prepare' bit. (In fact, the word I have translated as 'glue' here, is 'nail varnish remover', but this seems totally implausible to me as an agent for sticking plastic together, unless it melts the plastic, in which case the floppy disk case would be warped and unable to work in the machine, for for the sake of logic I changed it to 'glue', but even so it would not work, as the heat generated in a disk drive is not enough to make phosphorous ignite, and if the singer is relying on friction (i.e. the disk is spinning around with bits of phosphorous scraping on the inside of the floppy disk case, that is still a no-no, as the disk itself would not spin if there was an obstruction like that. Bit silly, but anyway, I did the translation as asked.))--ChokinBako (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot ChokinBako. I really didn't know what to expect from the message (it's not lyrics per se; it's more of a hidden message of sorts) so I'm as baffled as you are. Thank you for your plausibility analysis, too! :) Either way, knowing what it says, however silly it may have turned out to be, is very gratifying. Thanks again. Kreachure (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

PS. I did a little snooping around and found out that this describes a pretty unusual but known way to damage your computer; the method indeed mentions nail polish remover, not as glue, but as flammable material (I presume:). Kreachure (talk) 22:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No worries, mate! I am surprised Oda Mari didn't get on it before me, because she usually does! ChokinBako (talk) 07:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry that I didn't translate, Kreachure. I am not good at J to E translation. So I expected some English native speaker would do that. And thank you ChokinBako for the perfect translation. Oda Mari (talk) 14:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)