Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 4

= May 4 =

I don't have an accent! Do I?
At my work we had an argument. I believe I don't have an accent, I think I talk "right". Southerners have their "drawl". My co-workers are convinced everyone has an accent. When I talk about a "roof" I say "ruf". This is not an accent. When I say "proof' I say Proof not "pruf". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * See my answer to the question above for 3 May 2008, please. --Kjoonlee 08:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You have an accent. Everybody does. See Accent (linguistics). Note the bit saying: "The concept of a person having "no accent" is meaningless..." Pfly (talk) 08:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

"In linguistics, an accent is a manner of pronunciation of a language." But I pronunciate thing the way they are suppose to —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * But if you think about it, "the way they are supposed to be pronounced" is just a human convention. There's nothing wrong or right about pronouncing trap, bath, cot, caught, merry, Mary, marry, roof or nuclear the way you do. --Kjoonlee 08:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So your saying what people say is the right way isn't necessary the right way. Anybody would agree that calling a roof a ruf is incorrect. There's got to be a point where everyone agrees that's the correct way to pronounce a word, therefore they don't have an accent. Does that make sense? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jue2 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There are two issues you're confusing here: having an accent, and having a standard accent. As given above, the definition of "accent" is "a manner of pronunciation of a language". You cannot speak without an accent, because you can't speak without pronouncing the language you're speaking. Now, of all the possible accents in any given language, only some of them are considered "standard". If you pronounce words the way most educated people in your society pronounce them, the way schoolteachers tell you you ought to pronounce them, you can be said to have a prescriptively "standard" accent, but that's an accent too. In England, the standard educated accent (called "RP" for Received Pronunciation) is fairly well defined (although there's some variation within it), but in American English there's actually a lot of variation within what's called General American (so called, ironically enough more by British linguists than by American ones). In America, some people pronounce "cot" and "caught" the same, and some people pronounce them differently, but both variants still fall within the scope of a "standard" educated American accent. The same goes for "whine" and "wine": most people pronounce them the same, but some people pronounce them differently, and both versions can be found within "standard" educated American English. As for "roof", it's probably still true that pronouncing it with the vowel of "goose" is considered "better" or "more educated" (by criteria that have nothing to do with linguistics!), but the pronunciation using the vowel of "foot" is gaining ground, also among educated people, and will probably be "standard" alongside the other pronunciation within 50 years or so. So if your co-workers give you grief for pronouncing "roof" with the "foot" vowel, tell them you're just on the cutting edge of a linguistic innovation that is on its way toward becoming standard. (But they are right that everyone has an accent!) —Angr 11:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Since you are an American, of course you have an accent. An American accent. Pretty obvious, I'd have thought. Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers" Does that mean a southern drawl is a dialect and not an accent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.215.247.114 (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it means Southern American English is a dialect, not an accent, because it involves not just matters of pronunciation but also matters of syntax (like the "fixin' to" and "might could" constructions) and vocabulary (like calling any soft drink a "Coke" or calling tennis shoes "tennies"). —Angr 22:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerning "whine" and "wine", I've heard that most people in England today pronounce "whine" and "wine" identically, and people in Wales pronounce them differently and think the English are saying in wrong even though the language is called "English". Michael Hardy (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Your last clause is a non sequitur. As for the rest, I don't know about Wales, but certainly in Scotland and Ireland, they're pronounced differently. —Angr 22:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It boggles the mind to see that some people have never worked out the idea that, "Gee, since I think English-speakers in other places have accents, they must think I have an accent too." Strad (talk) 23:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a tip; record your own voice and compare your voice to some accents your are aware of. Either that or speak with a forigner and ask them if they can understand them clearly.  I've done both and came to realise that I didn't just have a southern England accent, but actually quite a strong accent; so strong that I'm told when I speak French, it comes out with such a strong English accent it is nearly incomprehensible (no, the words are generally correct and in the right order too!)  Astronaut (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What's the difference between an accent and dialect?70.215.139.16 (talk) 00:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The article on dialect puts it this way: "A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (phonology, including prosody). Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation, the term 'accent' is appropriate, not dialect." - EronTalk 00:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Your comments make me think of the major marker for Northern versus Southern English - the long versus short "a". As a northerner I pronounce words like "bath" and "castle" with a short "a"; ie as they are written.  My southern friends say something more like "barth" and "carstle", and as an American you may well say something more akin to "bairth" and "cairstle".  You'll find lots of people who will swear that theirs is the "right" pronunciation, but the only difference is the current status accorded to each variant.  The fashion for received pronunciation may have once have dictated that you had to install a barth in your carstle if you wanted a job reading the BBC news, but it doesn't mean that BBC newsreaders had no accent and the rest of us did.  The problem lies in the odd (and ultimately offensive) notion that there's something low-status about having "an accent".  The way we each speak our language is influenced by all sorts of historical, geographical and social factors, and no variant is intrinsically more definitive than any other.  What is "standard" today may well be "non-standard" next week.  Go mend your caisrtle ruf, take a long hot bairth, and raise a glarse of 80 pruf.  Vive la différence!  --  Ka renjc 08:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Phonologically speaking, most North American dialects have in bath and castle the vowel universally known as the "short A"--just like Northern English English. However, the phonetic value of this vowel may vary considerably--diphthongal realizations like  or  (yep, similar to British air) being commonly associated with American English by British speakers.  Not everybody in the U.S. speaks this way, however.  Speakers in and around New York City and Philadelphia may have  or  in bath but plain ol'  in trap.  All that aside, I guess it's safe to assume that this vowel is considerably longer, more "drawn-out"  in North America than it is in the British Isles.  In some areas of the U.S. you may hear girls saying my dad as .   Jack (Lumber) 15:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A quiphthong! — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * E.g. at 02:45.  Jack (Lumber) 19:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, let's not exaggerate (and the term would be "pentaphthong"). She says as a diphthong. In Texas, I heard a woman chide her husband Bill when he was teasing her by saying "!" —Angr 21:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A quiff-thong? Ouch! SaundersW (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a Southern drawl with IPA transcription.  Jack (Lumber) 22:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's interesting to note that a local accent can be carried over to a foreign language, even though people can't properly place it. When I speak French, my Liverpool (UK) accent comes over, but French people say I sound either Belgian or Dutch. When I speak German, German people also say I sound Dutch. Dutch people say I sound either German or French when I speak Dutch. When I speak Japanese, however, Japanese people say my accent is totally Japanese (and on the telephone many people have a hard time believing I am British), but fellow English speakers listening to my Japanese laugh, saying it's funny hearing Japanese in a Liverpool accent, even though after ten years in Japan I speak RP and fellow Brits usually have no idea where I am from when I speak English.--ChokinBako (talk) 02:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)