Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 20

= November 20 =

"Full of p and v"
I came across the phrase "full of p and v", used to describe a rascally lad, in this article. What are "p and v"? DuncanHill (talk) 03:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be "piss and vinegar." Deor (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Which I would never have guessed! Many thanks DuncanHill (talk) 03:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My own mother, not particularly given to indelicacy, uses the unabbreviated expression. The mother of the person quoted in the article seems to have been rather overdoing it in the squeamishness department (though I've encountered people who say, for example, "Oh, H!" to avoid uttering the word hell). Deor (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My mom just says, "Oh, bad-word, bad-word!" DOR (HK) (talk) 06:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mothers are funny creatures, aren't they. Some years ago, when Bob Hawke was still President of the ACTU (this would have been in the late 1970s), he got up on a public platform and made a speech, in which he used the word "shit".  My Mum was greatly offended, and she wanted to complain to anyone who would listen, but the only way she could complain about it without "lowering herself to Hawke's level" was to spell the word out "S-H-I-T", as if this was somehow a less serious offence against public decency than saying the word itself.  Crazy.  Where would we be without mothers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, as Miss Flite would say, they're all "quite M." Deor (talk) 05:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand how 'all piss and wind' came to mean 'all hot air' or 'useless'. But if 'full of piss and vinegar' means 'rascally', that puzzles me! Strawless (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't know much about the history of it, but I'd take "piss and vinegar" to mean 'manly hormones' (territory-marking and the like) mixed with a bit of biting sourness. Black Carrot (talk) 00:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I must say, "full of piss and vinegar" does not sound as affectionate as "rascally". DuncanHill (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The idiom seems to me to make as much (or as little) sense as the nearly synonymous "full of beans", but perhaps that's because I've been familiar with it for as long as I can remember and it just feels right to me. Deor (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

grammar/prepositions
I was wondering if the sentence "This is a city that Picasso lived in" would be incorrect for ending in an apostrophe. Is it wrong? Should it be "This is a city in which Picasso lived," or something else? Also, how would I translate that into Spanish? "Este es un ciudad que Picasso vivió en," or something else? --71.131.190.211 (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean a preposition, not an apostrophe. Some people object to this construction, but most people consider it normal English.  There is a story about Winston Churchill defending it.  (It's probably true, but there is no definite evidence and no record of his exact words.)  Someone wrote a note complaining about him using it and saying it was erroneous; and Churchill responded "That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put" -- in other words, he was saying that objecting to the construction was nonsense "which I will not put up with", and making fun of the alternative "which" construction at the same time.


 * As for Spanish, the article on this subject only mentions the construction being used in Germanic languages, not Romance ones (except for some nonstandard usage in French). So in Spanish you would use a construction like "in which".  Perhaps "Este es un ciudad en que Picasso vivió" is correct; my Spanish is too poor to be sure.  In French it would similarly use an "in which" construction: "C'est une ville dans laquelle Picasso a vécu."


 * --Anonymous, 04:31 UTC, November 20/08.


 * The Spanish noun "ciudad" is feminine.
 * Ésta es una ciudad en que Picasso vivió.
 * Ésta es una ciudad en la cual Picasso vivió.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 10:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Also possible is Esta es una ciudad en la que vivió Picasso. Or the less than literal Esta es una de las ciudades en las que Picasso vivió. Pallida  Mors  20:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For some reason, I want that to be en las que vivió Picasso .  Little Red Riding Hood  talk  00:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * One could get around it by saying Picasso lived in this city. —Tamfang (talk) 04:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't help with the Spanish, but in English I think I would use "where" rather than "live in". Thus, "This is a city where Picasso [once] lived ...".  This allows you to start the sentence with "the city" (presumably because you want to stress the city not Picasso) and avoid the troublesome prepositional problem. (I'm personally always amazed by those who get hung up about prepositions at the end of a sentence.  But careful writers need to think about these people all the same.)

Connotation in another language
I was looking at the responses to the question about Palestinian names two questions (now three post e.c.) up and wound up wiki-wandering over to the list of the 99 names of God in the Quran. One of the words struck me as rather interesting. The word is اللطيف "Lateef" (I realize the arabic says al-Lateef but I don't know where the "al" ends and the "lateef" begins...) meaning "subtly kind." Since connotations don't come across well, my question is what sorts of acts/situations would be described as lateef? 152.16.15.23 (talk) 03:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I looked it up in my dictionary, and there were about 30 different translations offered, from "dainty" to "witty" (don't feel like typing in the whole list), but the core meanings seem to be "courteous" and "kind". The phrase الجنس اللطيف al-jins al-latif means "the gentle sex" (i.e. women). AnonMoos (talk) 05:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * لطیف (latif) is the one who has لطف (lotf), meaning grace. So God is Latif (Graceful, full of Grace). --Omidinist (talk) 05:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In everyday context the English equivalent can often be "nice".--K.C. Tang (talk) 06:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep it simple, STUPID?
The expression in the title has puzzled me since the first time I heard it. Why "stupid"? To me, a non-native speaker of English, this would imply that you think the person you're trying to convince is stupid if she doesn't agree with you. A poor strategy for reaching consensus, IMHO. Same thing with "It's the economy, stupid". Am I missing something? --NorwegianBluetalk 09:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Despite your opinion as to what is a good strategy, these expressions mean exactly what you think. From a Language Desk point of view, I think that's all there is to say about them.  --Anonymous, 09:43 UTC, November 20/08.


 * Let's see. I always took the "stupid" part in the "it's the economy, stupid" as a means to jolt the listener into accepting something blatantly obvious that has been overlooked. A sort of intentional, but not necessarily offensively meant insult. I'd say KISS (that, frankly, I hadn't heard of before) just took from that patern (the article says it's backronymed). But then, I'm not a native speaker, either :) TomorrowTime (talk) 09:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You might better understand it as something you would say to yourself to remind you not to complicate things. Same thing with "It's the economy, stupid". Picture slapping yourself repeatedly on the forehead while saying it.

Also, compare with "What would Jesus do?"--Rallette (talk) 10:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * For me it was an acronym in journalism where brevity and accessibility was all, suggesting you were stupid if you didn't keep it simple. Julia Rossi (talk) 11:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect they added the "stupid" simply to change the acronym from KIS to KISS. StuRat (talk) 03:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Or maybe the subeditor liked the chance to break balls indirectly. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's my impression that KISS came out of WW2, and was advice to those who might have to do some operation in a moment where calm reflection is off the menu; if it's complicated, you have less chance of doing it right when you're relatively stupid. On yet another hand, I once had a Chinese boss who liked to say "keep it simple and stupid" and thereby less prone to subtle failures. —Tamfang (talk) 04:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I encountered the saying without encountering the acronym a couple of decades ago. We were writing instructions (some for the military).  I can't say when and where it originated, but we usually took it to mean that you were acting stupidly by being too smart for the reader to follow your instructions.  It was used when the suggested method was impractical in the field or required too much specialized knowledge for an ordinary user to understand.  The recommended testing method was "manager and secretary testing" = if both a manager and his secretary could follow your instructions without breaking anything it was o.k. (User-friendly instructions became a fad way later - so did female managers.) 76.97.245.5 (talk) 07:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If a manager could follow instructions without breaking things, he wouldn't need a secretary. DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This post has made me think about a phrase that one hears increasingly in the UK: 'It's a no brainer'. Here at least it is to be used with caution.  I know many people - mostly of a certain age - who believe this to be really most offensive almost regardless of context and tone.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That expression has been used in the US for decades now to mean "it's easy". Here, it would only be offensive to someone who had attempted the task and failed, similar to "it's foolproof". StuRat (talk) 14:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A no-brainer is an easy task or, perhaps more often, an obvious choice. —Tamfang (talk) 03:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone! I asked because I considered appending a reference to the KISS principle to a recent answer of mine at another desk, but refrained from doing so out of fear of offending the OP. The fact that various alternative acronyms are listed in the article - "Keep It Sweet & Simple", "Keep It Short & Simple", "Keep It Super-Simple" - indicates that others may have felt uncomfortable with the expression too. I liked the idea of thinking of it as something you say to yourself, though, to stop yourself from making things more complex than they need to be. --NorwegianBluetalk 11:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

another way to say gag gift
another way to request someone to bring a gag gift to make it a decent gift —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.62.119 (talk) 14:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you mean "gag gift" as in jokey, novelty or prank gift? and you want them to spend more than usual on it? Then your words, "make it a decent gift" sounds about right... Julia Rossi (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe he wants them to bring a joke gift which is not "adult"-themed... AnonMoos (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A clean gag gift? Julia Rossi (talk) 03:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

self referential spoonerism
In the talk pages of 2 articles (pun and Spooner) the word oonerspism is used but not atributed to anyone. (The signbot is getting lazy)? I would like to give credit and kudos to the person who used it. Is there any way to find out who did it? Phil Burnstein (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Go back through the edit histories of each page. AnonMoos (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * (e/c) Just search the revision history of the talk pages. Since both are long, the fast way to do it is to first click on the "500" link to show all revisions at once, and then do a binary search. For example, I've located . On the revision history page, you will find also a link to a tool (WikiBlame) which is supposed to do this search automatically, but it has never found anything useful when I tried it, so it is probably broken. — Emil J. 16:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I should only wish to thank the inventor of 'oonerspism' if it means something different from 'spoonerism'. If not, then there is surely no profit in it! Strawless (talk) 18:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree it's clever and takes spoonerism to a self-referential level. Thanks are due imho, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The works done by Ullysses are...
Ulysses' works? The works of Ulysses? Ulysses works? Mr.K. (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Ulysses' works", "Ulysses's works", or "the works of Ulysses", but not "Ulysses works" (which is a complete sentence, not a noun phrase). —Angr 16:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Angr, but I should add that the general rule for names ending in an s is that their possessive forms add only an apostrophe, and not another s, when they are said without adding another s sound. For me, "Ulysses’ works" is better than "Ulysses’s works", unless the sound intended ends in -seizes. Strawless (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

But it does end in seizes! Ulysses's works. Marx's stupidiy: pronounced "Marx is stupidity" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.160.199 (talk) 19:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, I should have picked something actually ending in s. Curtis's (or Curtis') shit: both pronounced 'curtis iz shirt'.  Darius's (or Darius'), both pronounced "Darius iz" and so on through Davis, Douglas, Ellis, hell: Elvis.  Nobody says Elvis's (or Elvis') as "Elvis shirt".  Anyone would say "Elvis iz shirt"


 * WP:MOS is –'s whether there's an ess or not. Afaik, Julia Rossi (talk) 21:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No, not really, Julia. The relevant bit says:
 * Proper nouns that end with s: There is tension in English over whether just an apostrophe, or an apostrophe and the letter s, should be added to such proper nouns (James' house or James's house, but be consistent within an article). Some forms always take an extra s (Ross's father); some, mainly Biblical and Classical, usually do not (Socrates' wife; Moses' ascent of Sinai; Jesus' last words).
 * The rule I adopt is that if I pronounce the final syllable as -səz or -zəz, then I write -s's, but if I don't, I write -s'. So, for example, I say brahmzəz simfəniz, so I write "Brahms's symphonies", but I say yulisiz voij, so I write "Ulysses' voyage".  Others may say yulisizəz voij, so they'd write "Ulysses's voyage".  As long as the writer is consistent in the same text with the same word, that's the main thing.   Where it's a collaborative project, such as the WP article on Ulysses, there has to be a consensus as how to write the possessive.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Apostrophe linked from there is also useful -- I go with the stylemeisters of publication, then. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Julia, as the most prolific editor of Apostrophe I can only endorse your decision. :)
 * And I entirely agree with JackofOz. Those who write as they would never speak have forgotten the original purpose of writing.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 23:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Elvi sez shirt it is then, (kidding) =) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Btw, I saw "greengrocers' apostrophe" and given Ulysses, is there a (use comfort) limit to the number of ess sounds incurred by adding 's to a word with two (or more) ess sounds already? Julia Rossi (talk) 23:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No fixed or agreed limit, Julia. People will make their own stylistic judgements, and speak and write accordingly. Some will find more acceptance with their audience or their readers; others will find less. Context and register are also relevant, but they do not decide the matter.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 23:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I just broke my brain trying to consider the possibility of referring to two people called Ulysses - the Ulysseses - and then talking about the car they own together - "The Ulysseses' car". *whirrclunk* Steewi (talk) 23:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Was that the Ulysseses's ute's essarex's spinning wheels's treads's loss's skids that went clunk?  Julia Rossi (talk) 00:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

What's the Latin genitive of Ulysses? Ulyssis or Ulyssedis or ... —Tamfang (talk) 04:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good question, Tamfang. First, the Latin is Ulixēs. The genitive is given in the Chambers-Murray recension of Smith and Lockwood as Ulixis, Ulixēī (four syllables), or what appears to be Ulixei (threes syllables, the last a diphthong; there is reason to doubt some of these!); but at Lewis and Short there is a slightly different story. See also here.
 * Apparently Ulixes had its roots in Etruscan forms connected with Greek Ὀλυσσεύς (see some forms at our article Odysseus). That is a recipe for complexity and uncertainty.
 * While we're at it, let's record that Ulysses is stressed on its second syllable, except for some unknown reason by some people when they stress the name of Joyce's great novel Ulysses on its first syllable, against all classical propriety, and against those modern European languages that normally preserve Latin stress (like Italian and Spanish).
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 05:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Record away. But note, while you're at it, that my dictionary (the Collins) prefers the pronunciation with the stress on the first syllable. I'm sure that other British dictionaries will do the same. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I note that. Normally I like Collins, and recommend it to others. It has to be descriptive of course; but in this case it seems to favour a certain crusty and affected way with the word. It is mysterious how this first-syllable stress got any currency in the UK. Everyman's pronouncing dictionary (a fine British resource) puts it last. Other UK dictionaries? Cite one that agrees with Collins! Most don't list proper names anyway. SOED gives that pronunciation second of two (Ulysses gets a general sense: "A traveller, an adventurer. Occas. also, a crafty and clever schemer"); Australia's major dictionary, the Macquarie (which I normally despise), also gives it second of two.– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 21:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This discussion has been quite the punctuational odyssey. And with her example about the family car, Julia hit a homer. --- OtherDave (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Doh! :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

French: le coeur au bord des yeux
My French isn't too bad, but just now I came across this phrase, which must have got something to do with falling in love, but I can't find any definition or translation, not even in my Petit Robert. Does anyone know? -- 93.132.170.2 (talk) 20:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "the heart on the verge of eyes", says google - heart to the edge of the eyes? On further searching, "au bord des lèvres" seems to be common also. My guess is it means something like being "all heart"; very compassionate.  I expect a french speaker will show up shortly...  FiggyBee (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No luck trying to find what the french is for "wearing your heart on your sleeve" meaning expressing emotions freely and openly (not hiding them) ... Julia Rossi (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Anon, a similar expression is indeed in Petit Robert, at the entry for "coeur":
 * "Avoir le cœur au bord des lèvres : être prêt à vomir."
 * "[To have one's heart at the brim of the lips: to be ready to vomit.]"
 * (Sorry!) The same information, but also some more that is helpful, can be found at "lèvre":
 * "Avoir le cœur au bord des lèvres, sur les lèvres : avoir des nausées; fig. dire toute sa pensée, être franc."
 * "[... to feel nauseous; figuratively, to speak one's mind fully, to be frank.]"
 * I have given translations that convey something of the feeling of the French, without being literal. Note also, at "bord":
 * "Être au bord des larmes, près de pleurer."
 * "[To be on the brink of tears, close to weeping.]"
 * For the sensitive French recipient of the poem you cite, there would be echoes of both coeur au bord des lèvres and au bord des larmes in le coeur au bord des yeux. Quite smart and poignant writing, in fact. If you can stomach the bit about spewing! [If it is the poem I found here, I meant. I see the expression occurs at a few places.– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T–]
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 23:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Doh, I just found and was coming back to correct myself. GJ Noetica! FiggyBee (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, Figment.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 23:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I understand the literal meaning of the words and I'm quite sure that comparing the expression with "almost puking" and "almost crying" is no help. I just don't get what "to have the heart on the verge of the eyes" could be a metaphor for. -- 93.131.91.169 (talk) 05:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Quote the expression in the context that you found it in, Anon. Then we can take things further. Also, think about Julia's thought (above): wearing one's heart on one's sleeve sounds ludicrous, but it makes good metaphoric sense in English.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 05:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The French reference desk is already getting excited about this question. It seems that it's not a fixed expression that's easily explainable or translatable, not even for them. Probably just kitsch. The context is a love song by Calogero, namely "En apesanteur" (In weightlessness), in which the singer meets a girl in an elevator, they look at each other, he briefly describes how he feels (his heart on the verge of his eyes, and a few other things too) and then (as the video clarifies) they make out etc. I was hoping for a neat and concise definition of this phrase to be given to German learners of French, since in German a literal translation makes (IMO) no sense at all. (Anyway, I sticked with the literal translation and noone complained...) -- 93.131.91.169 (talk) 13:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "... au bord de ..." can also mean "... next to ..." - so we get "heart next to your eyes". Perhaps it is similar to the English expression "to have your heart in your mouth" meaning to be scared or anxious; such as one might experience when attracted to someone in an elevator.  Astronaut (talk) 13:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know the meanings of the words in this expression. After all that I've read it seems that it's not a fixed expression (as I had thought first) that could be defined the way "heart in your mouth" has a certain meaning, instead is seems to be an attempt at metaphor and poetry by the songwriter. -- 93.131.91.169 (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * As a native French speaker, I can confirm that 1) it's not a standard expression, and 2) it most likely means, in the context of this song: "I have a tendency to fall in love on sight". It's a bit of a clumsy metaphor. --Xuxl (talk) 15:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's it (imho)! We have "love at first sight"... Félicitations, vous gagnez le prix =)Julia Rossi (talk) 21:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Love at first sight and fr:Coup de foudre. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Would coup de foudre be like "smitten"? Julia Rossi (talk) 21:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, Julia Rossi. Yes. Smitten. – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo  N  oetica! T– 22:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * oo-oo, la ruelle rapide? Julia Rossi (talk) 09:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmmmmm...! Ou bien: "Di rigori armato il seno / Contro amor mi ribellai / Ma fui vinto in un baleno / In mirar due vaghi rai." :) – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 10:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Inverted question mark
I want to know the name of the upside down question mark in fron of a spanish question —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.62.207.238 (talk) 22:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's called an Inverted question mark. FiggyBee (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's correct if you're speaking English. If I read the Spanish Wikipedia article on question marks correctly, the two marks ¿ and ? are collectively called question marks ("signos de interrogación"), just as opening and closing quotes in English are collectively called quotation marks. The inverted mark ¿ is called a "signo de apertura de interrogación", while ? is a "signo de cierre de interrogación": that is, they have "opening" and "closing" question marks just as we do with quotation marks.  --Anonymous, 06:30 UTC, November 21, 2008.