Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 25

= November 25 =

Middle lane
One lane goes north, another south. The central lane is for anybody to overtake. What is it called? Kittybrewster &#9742;  18:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've heard it called the "suicide lane", and also seen it used for anybody to turn left. —Angr 18:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Reversible lane. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends on what side of the road you drive on. If you follow the French Revolutionaries and Napoleon, then it's the same as what Angr said. However, if you follow the original (and logical approach to a horse charging at you with a lance), then the British style of turning right is correct, if you are looking for suicide.--ChokinBako (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * See Right- and left-hand traffic. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So much talk recently at the reference desks about choosing which lane to take, in which country, and for what transgressive or homely purpose. Left-hand lanes to divinity... Sheesh! Makes an editor wonder which way to turn! We all do our best to behave appropriately, though. If you're not all very careful I'll post an essay here about the significance of left, right, the points of the compass, and the connections between these in various Indo-European languages and ancient cultures. It gets complicated. You have been warned.
 * A related question though, which I put here because it concerns semiotics generally, if not language in a narrow sense:
 * In the state of Victoria (and I think in Australia generally), a legal distinction is made between two sorts of lane-separators: single intermittent lines (- - - -) and double continuous lines (====; imagine these are without any breaks). Everyone knows what these mean. You can't normally cross over the double lines, especially to overtake. And you can't park at the kerb where there are double lines. There are also composites (double, continuous on one side but intermittent on the other), and they are easy to understand also. BUT... there are also single continuous lines. These are rarely so much as mentioned in learners' guidebooks (a serious omission!); Victorian legislation and regulations give them inadequate treatment; enquiries to VicRoads yield confused and embarrassed responses. I gather that they are, at law, equivalent to single intermittent lines. But most drivers would accord them far more respect than that, without quite knowing why. Can anyone clear this up? What is the origin and explanation of this persistent grey area? Is there the same uncertainty elsewhere?* We are told that in the US "single broken lines mean passing is allowed, single solid lines mean pass only to avoid a hazard". Is that so, there? And elsewhere? Not in Australia, I think. In practice and at law you may cross even double lines carefully to avoid a hazard, of course.
 * * The following Irish joke will not be considered a sufficient answer: "Paddy, what do unbroken single lines mean?" "Argh, you can't cross over them, at all." "And unbroken double lines?" "Begorrah, you can't cross over them, at all at all."
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 03:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Single yellow line and Double-yellow line. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Road surface marking. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, Wavelength... good to see you around with greater frequency. I had already looked at Road surface marking. My link at the words "We are told..." was to that article. It is poorly written and insufficiently linked and sourced; and I still wonder about the portion that I quoted above. What do drivers do when the only way to avoid a hazard is to park in the middle of the lane or to cross a double-line lane-separator?
 * In Australia there is a legal terminological distinction between overtaking (same direction) and passing (opposite direction); but I see that is far from universal, and our articles are careless about any such distinctions.
 * Single yellow line and Double-yellow line are almost completely irrelevant to lane-marking. The talkpages are completely blank, and the articles are pretty marginal and isolated (though credit is due to the intrepid initiators of such articles, of course). (Double yellow line redirects to Double-yellow line; should be the other way around.) Some precision editor versed in traffic law might be inspired to adopt this cluster of articles, we hope.
 * There is still no clear answer for Australia.
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 06:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

What is it called? If there are side streets, it is a turning lane; if not, it is a passing lane. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In the state of Michigan in the United states, it is referred to as the "center lane". Signs are often posted reading "center lane for left turns only". Thomprod (talk) 20:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I know of at least one road in Melbourne (Johnson St, Fitzroy, Collingwood etc) that has a lane that's sometimes used for traffic going in one direction and sometimes for traffic going in the other direction. It's controlled by traffic lights and there's a big red X when it's not available for one of the directions.  I wouldn't call it a centre lane, but I don't know what I would call it.  The road over the Sydney Harbour Bridge has a similar arrangement. --  JackofOz (talk) 23:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Jarvis Street in Toronto also has that. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Jack's examples are called reversible lanes, or tidal flow lanes (see also ). Auckland Harbour Bridge has a similar arrangement, although for some years it's had a moveable concrete barrier. The central lane for turning is a flush median (which WP doesn't seem to like.  Just to show I'm not making it up:, ). As for the OP's central passing  lane, well, they're central passing lanes or, colloquially, "suicide lanes". Gwinva (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that the flush median is not usually called a lane and has special markings. Also you can use it both for turning right and if you've just turned right out of a road to wait until you can safely join the lane to your left. Nil Einne (talk) 15:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

There used to be one of these on the North Circular Road near Southgate in London. I frequently heard it referred to over here as the "chicken lane", a coinage I adored. Sadly, some safety-first do-gooders got wise to the utter stupidity of it and have got rid of it. My technique was to put my lights on and look determined, lol. --Dweller (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Norwegian Writing
I want to know how to write "My son, my love" in Norwegian original writting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.0.63 (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A direct translation would be, "Min sønn, min elskede", but that would be highly ambiguous, as "elskede" usually would refer to a lover. To avoid the abiguity you would repeat "sønn". So I would say either "Min sønn, min elskede sønn", or "Min sønn, min kjære sønn" (kjære = dear). --NorwegianBluetalk 21:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

English to Arabic
How would you transliterate the phrase "Son of the wife of the merchant" into Arabic. I know son = ibn, wife = zawja, and merchant = taajer, but I'm not sure on how to put it all together. I will be away from my computer until Friday (28th), so I won't be able to reply to any comments until then. Thanks in advance for the help. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You just use those words, with a definite article on the merchant, "ibn zawjat al-tajir". I'm probably going to confuse this part..."zawjat" actually ends in -at and the t is usually not pronounced, but in a possessive phrase like this (called an idafa), it is pronounced. But maybe that is only in strict classical pronunciation where you'd also need the other case endings ("ibnu zawjati-l-tajiri", I guess?). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note also that in "ibn zawjat al-tajir", the "al-" is assimilated to the following dental initial of "tajiir", so it's pronounced "at-tajir", even though it's written "al-tajir". ابن زوجة التجير is the written form, just in case you need it. (and a chance for me to show off) Steewi (talk) 23:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aw, I always forget that part. Also, there case ending doesn't show up at the end of a phrase, right? (In pausa?) So it would just be "ibnu zawjati-t-tajir". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Case endings are no longer used in MSA anyway (except the adverbial ending –an), so don’t worry … --K.C. Tang (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What about 'waahid at-taajir'? Why complicate things by putting the wife in there?--ChokinBako (talk) 01:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by waahid at-taajir?--K.C. Tang (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Presumably he means "waleed"? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, supposed to be walad ولد ... Btw, "merchant" should be tājir تاجر (the active participle pattern), not "tajīr" as Steewi wrote. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 02:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm back. Thanks a bunch for the imput everyone. I'm majoring in Chinese in college, but I might dabble in Arabic a little too. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Son of the wife? As in you're not sure he's really the son of the merchant as the wife could have got bored while the merchant was away on a business trip?  &#x2013; b_jonas 11:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's her son from a previous marriage? Adam Bishop (talk) 17:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Rewording sentence
"By elevating his ascension to metaphorically represent the progress of his own nation such a comparison is indicative of the greatness that Gatsby has perceivably achieved." Anyway I can reword this to make it read better? Any help would be greatly appreciated. 86.143.45.73 (talk) 20:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Gatsby's personal elevation into a higher social class is a metaphor for the similar elevation of his own nation in the world order."  Is that basically what you are trying to say?  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's much better, thanks! 86.143.45.73 (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a couple of tips for avoiding future problems like this. 1) Less words is always better than more.  2) Avoid nested clauses, which make it hard to decide which clause is modifying which words.  "In order that he could find out that which was causing him pain, it became neccessary for Peter to visit a physician" is an example of this problem.  Just say "Peter needed to visit a physician in order to find the cause of his pain".  Less clauses, more clarity.  3) Avoid the passive voice at all costs.  Instead of saying "The dog was purchased by Jim" say "Jim purchased the dog".  In general, people tend to assume that better writing uses bigger words, and more complex sentance structure.  This is actually farthest from the truth.  The best writing gets to the point, and uses unambiguous language that the audience is likely to understand. --Jayron32. talk . contribs  21:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Two comments for the price of one: The passive voice exists for a purpose, and it's perfectly OK in its place.  I agree that it's often best to use the active voice, particularly if there's no compelling reason to use passive, and particularly in relatively simple sent e nces, but avoiding passive "at all costs" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  --  JackofOz (talk) 03:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably true, but in general it gets over used by people trying to sound more, I don't know, educated in their writing. The passive voice is one of those things that it is best to unlearn completely, then gradually reintroduce into your writing as you become a better writer.  It does have its place (else, why would it exist), however many people misuse it, and thus my advice above... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And yet you just used it yourself (possibly without any conscious effort) - "... it gets over used by people ...". --  JackofOz (talk) 05:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I also used the phrase "It does have its place" meaning, well, it does have its place... --Jayron32. talk . contribs 11:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the advice guys, I will definitely take it on-board. 81.132.26.166 (talk) 12:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * But aren't the very foundations of academia based on wordy run-on sentences ? Without such obscure language I fear the ivory towers would all implode. StuRat (talk) 02:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No academician worth his or her salt would ever employ a run-on sentence, Stu. True, these people are prone to excessive wordiness, but that in itself does not mean that their sentences are grammatically unsound. --  JackofOz (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * But most academicians aren't very salty, at least in their use of language. StuRat (talk) 07:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

'Heave' offering ?
In the Holy Bible, commonly known as 'God's Word',many 'offerings' are mentioned in the Old Testament. Some are self-explanatory, viz. 'sin offering'. However,this one has puzzeled me, despite attempting to locate it in my concordance. Are you able to provide a detailed answer to the meaning,derivation, and background of my subject question, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.211.234 (talk) 22:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, Anonymous. OED has an entry for this term, and explains it this way:
 * "In the Levitical law: An offering which was ‘heaved’ or elevated by the priest when offered; also used of other offerings, e.g. those for the construction of the tabernacle. The word is used in Tindale's version of the Pentateuch and the Bible of 1611 to render Heb. t'rūmāh (in 1611 also frequently rendered simply ‘offering’ or ‘oblation’), which was taken by some Rabbis to mean ‘elevation’, from rōmem to lift up."
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 22:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Bible Search Results: heave offering
 * and >Exodus 29:28 "It shall be for Aaron and his sons as their
 * and Exodus 29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.
 * and Exodus 29:28 Greek, Hebrew, Latin
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Heave offering. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Our article claims "heave offering is a misnomer". In Hebrew, the first meaning that comes to mind from "terumah" is that it is a tithe to the Kohen (priest) that can only be eaten by him and his immediate family. There used to be a market in terumah goods, because they were useless to ordinary people, so (say) terumah wheat would have a lower price because it was very much a buyer's market - especially because the Kohen could eat any wheat he liked. The situation gets even more complicated when you realise there was also a market in goods that were dubious (have they been tithed?) or where a mix-up has literally taken place. --Dweller (talk) 13:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Pronounciation of Berkeley
A quick question from a non-native speaker: how would you pronounce Bishop Berkeley's name? Would the first syllable sound roughly like the first syllable in "nurse" (with b instead of n, of course...sorry, I have a rather fragmentary knowledge of IPA so I tried to use approximate examples) or roughly like "bar"? The article gives /ˈbɑrkli/ as the correct pronounciation but I think I've heard both pronounciations, so I'm curious -- Ferkelparade &pi; 23:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always heard it as "Barkley" (like the dog on Sesame Street), and not like the university in California. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See Berkeley pronunciation: How to pronounce Berkeley in English and compare:
 * Berkshire, Clerk, Derby, Hertford, Jervis, Kerr, Sergeant.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * These all have variant spellings with -ar-; note also university–(inter)varsity. John Kerr and Deborah Kerr, who co-starred in Tea and Sympathy, had differently-pronounced surnames. jnestorius(talk) 00:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)