Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 October 7

= October 7 =

Hitler's accent
For me, Hitler's accent doesn't sound Austrian, although he grew up there and his 'r' sound sounded different from modern Germans too. Am I right? Are there more differences? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 11:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not up on german linguistic variation, but there may be several issues at hand. First of all, it is possible, either through training, or just naturally over time, for a person's accent to change.  For example, when I was growing up I had a rather strong New England accent, however after living in 3 other areas of the U.S., my accent has become "neutralized" to where it matches the classic "U.S. Television News Reporter accent"... Also, accents are not simply uniform, even in the same geographic area.  There are likely to be local variation, as well as socioeconomic variation.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  11:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that accents can change through time - 60, 70 years ago, Hitler's accent could have been the most standard form of Austrian accent. Not saying that's the case, just throwing the historio-linguistic component into the debate. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Another thing to keep in mind if you're basing your impression of his accent on his prepared speeches is that he could have been consciously suppressing his Austrian accent for the benefit of his German listeners. Rural Austrian accents sound very "hillbillyish" to Germans (which is why Arnold Schwarzenegger never dubs his own voice in his movies for the German market), and it wouldn't have been seemly to have people snicker at his accent. (Jimmy Carter had a hard enough time getting people to take him seriously in the mid-70s because of his accent, imagine if he had sounded like Lucas Black and had been running 40 years earlier!) —Angr 12:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * For me as a German from the northern part of Germany there is a slight southern accent but it is (nearly) standard speech. Except for the R: He rolled it more than it is usual. It is sometimes even possible to hear it in words which are usually not pronounced with R. I would say it is a kind of hypercorrection. However, I am not a linguist. ;-) -- heuler06 (talk) 19:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I have noticed that Austrians of right wing leanings tend to use a rather characteristic mode of enunciation, somewhat reminiscent of Hitler´s diction. The basic elements of this are a rather clipped speaking mode, a clear distinction between  individual words and the absence of soft consonants, which are pronounced as hard.
 * Bear in mind that Hitler was using language in a rather agressive way. Most likely he would have chosen consciously to avoid many aspects of Austrian German which, by simple phonetics, indicate some sloppy laid back laissez-faire attitude of generic laziness.  It´s a bit like comparing a melodious Irish lilt to the language of Margaret Thatcher.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Career
'CAREER' which is the most important aspect for each and every person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.237.67.97 (talk) 14:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, can you formulate your question more clearly, please? —Angr 14:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're asking what is the most important aspect of a person's career, that varies widely from person to person. Some people do jobs for the money, others do it for job satisfaction, others do it to gain advancement in their chosen trade or profession.  Some do it because they can't think of anything else to do.  Really it is not possible to give a straight answer to this question. --Richardrj talkemail 14:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

France and Spain
What do you call a Spaniard living in or born in France? Thanks,  Grsz  X  16:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, a Spaniard born in France is called "French". Consider Carlos Da Cruz, Francis Cabrel (who has 100% Italian ancestry, but is French), and others.  A Spaniard living in France could either be called "Spanish" or "French" (depending on how much he had adopted French lifestyle), or "Ibero-French", if you really wanted to get creative.  The Jade Knight (talk) 18:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How about as far as ancestry goes? Like African-Americans.  Grsz  X  19:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You may as well ask, "What do you call a person of European ancestry living in the USA ?" I don´t think there is a demonym for those 300 odd million.  Of course, odd refers to the 305 million and not to any other national quality.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it has to be that hard. If it was important to say that a Spanish person wasn't actually born in Spain, but in France, you could call him a "French-born Spaniard".  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In the United States, Hyphenated American terms like African American, Irish American, Indian American are common, but often contentious. Is there any other pair of countries/regions X and Y where immigrants from country Y to country X, and perhaps their descendants, are called "Y-ish X-ians" (in whatever language)? jnestorius(talk) 22:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll give you the text I had in mind, and just let me know if this most recent version sounds okay: "Gipsy Kings are a music group from Arles and Montpellier, France. Though from France, they are Spanish Romani musicians as their parents fled Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They are known for bringing Rumba Catalana, a pop-oriented version of traditional flamenco music, to worldwide audiences. Their music has a particular Rumba Flamenca style, with pop influences; many songs of the Gipsy Kings fit social dances, such as Salsa and Rumba. Their music has been described as a place where "Spanish flamenco and Romani rhapsody meet salsa funk"."   Grsz  X  22:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would replace the second sentence with "Their parents were gitanos (Roma) who fled Spain during the Spanish Civil War." jnestorius(talk) 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha, if I had came across that page before this would have been a lot easier. Thanks,  Grsz  X  02:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * France operates citizenship in a Jus soli way as I understand it, so a permanent citizen in France is French. Unlike, say, Germany which has a blood-line (jus sanguine? spelling) basis - though I think even they have moved away from that citizenship model. Basically everybody who lives in France permanently is (officially) French I think. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Living is France is not sufficient to be French, you need to request the nationality to get it, and it could be refused (but rarely is). Being born in France is sufficient to be French. --Lgriot (talk) 06:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Prefix
What's the difference in the meaning of the prefixes "hemi" and "semi", and how do you know when to use which? Thanks.92.2.212.124 (talk) 20:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They both mean 'half'. 'Hemi' comes from Greek; 'semi' comes from Latin. Ultimately, they come from the same root in Proto-Indo-European. It makes sense to make compounds from the same root, e.g. 'hemicycle' and 'semicircle' (although the latter does have a Greek version as well). If the second part of the compound is an English root, use 'semi', e.g. 'semiquaver'. What about 'demi'? That's another question. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 20:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, although I don't know what "It makes sense to make compounds from the same root" means. I thought of it because you get a hemisphere but a semicircle. Anyway, thanks.92.2.212.124 (talk) 20:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In hemisphere the noun sphere is a derivative of a Greek root, thus the Greek prefix hemi is used. In semicircle the word comes from the Latin circulus and is prefixed with the Latin semi.  It is comparable to WP articles using UK English for British entries and US English for American topics.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sometimes they're combined, as in hemidemisemiquaver, and the principle of keeping like with like in terms of linguistic origin goes out the door. (I particularly like the Polish translation: sześćdziesięcioczwórkowa !! Imagine that on a spelling bee. ) --  JackofOz (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It strikes me that semi- is preferred for modifying adjectives, even of Greek origin: semi-autonomous. —Tamfang (talk) 05:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

So without reaserching the origins of a word before I add a prefix to it, how do I decide between them? Or should I just use "semi" as a safe bet? Thanks92.2.212.124 (talk) 20:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It´s got to be hemi-, semi- or demi-. If you can´t find it in any of these three places, it may be a neologism or a dictionary with a few pages missing.  Mind you, there is the term halfwit, so it may not be that easy.  Wit may be Proto-Germanic, but it also may be related to the Latin verb video :)
 * PS: Finally, I discovered a red link I am perfectly equipped to turn into a featured article. Eureka, my credentials in halfwittery are impeccable!--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about Latin video, but I've certainly read that wit is related to classical Greek oida ('I know'). It's not obvious from the first person singular, but first plural is idmen, and this would earlier have been pronounced widmen, so you can see the connection. A bit off-topic, but I thought you'd be interested! Maid Marion (talk) 11:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree with "It´s got to be hemi-, semi- or demi-." It could well be half-, especially if you are coining a once-off word.  I don't think demi is productive in English any more; it only comes in French loanwords.  And hemi- is confined to learned, mainly scientific/medical, words, where Greek still thrives. jnestorius(talk) 22:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jnestorius: use either 'semi-' or 'half-' unless there is an established word (like 'hemisphere'). --ColinFine (talk) 23:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should be like Ashton Kutcher and use 'demi-' more. -- LarryMac  | Talk  12:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)