Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 12

= September 12 =

Can somebody translate this into Latin?
How do you say "That which cannot be questioned cannot be challenged." in Latin?

I've kinda decided recently that this is my personal motto, since I believe that one must question everything, if someone can convince you that something shouldn't be questioned (a lot of religions do this) then that something controls you, so you must question everything. It has a lot of meaning to me. Anyway, I always liked Latin and since a lot of mottos are in Latin, I'd like to know how to say this one in Latin.

Thanks a lot! :D 63.245.144.77 (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, very literally how about "quod non potest dubitari non potest provocari". There is probably a shorter, pithier way to say it though. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey, as long as the meaning is still there, I don't care what wording is used. It would be better to choose something smaller and "pithier", though I can't think of any better way to say the same thing. Help would be greatly appreciated! :) 63.245.144.77 (talk) 02:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe "indubitabile non provocandum est". Perhaps I am trying to make it too pithy...(and now it says "must not be challenged" instead of "cannot"). Adam Bishop (talk) 07:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, changing the wording in that way would take the meaning out of it. I mean to say that if someone convinces you that an idea, organization, or some other entity cannot be challenged (as in dissent against it cannot be tolerated) then that thing controls you.

For example. The terrorists who carried out 9/11. You've probably seen the surveillance camera footage where they walked into the airport to hijack the planes. What if they had stopped and questioned what they were about to do right there? Then 9/11 would never have happened. But they didn't. They just went ahead and ended their lives for a false idea. Why? Because they had been convinced that they COULDN'T question it. They were controlled by a lie.

My point is "must not be challenged" would be wrong here. I mean "cannot be challenged". I suppose if someone can find a better way to word this that'd be great. 63.245.144.77 (talk) 07:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it work as something like "what is not questioned prevails" (prevail from Latin: praevalere have greater power) but in Latin of course. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That might work better. How do you say it that way? 63.245.144.77 (talk) 09:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Non dubitatum praevalet". Or you could just make Question Authority your personal motto. —Angr 10:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

True, but it's not just authority I question, it's everything. The burden of proof is on the individual making any claim to prove that their claim is correct, so any claim must be questioned whether it's a claim that their authority is legitimate or any other claim. Anyway, this is off topic. I think I'm most fond of the first one that was suggested even though it's long ("quod non potest dubitari non potest provocari"). I hope that that's all correct Latin and everything (I know Latin grammar is a pain) because I don't wanna end up looking silly. :)

Thanks! 63.245.144.77 (talk) 13:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * For a second opinion, you can refer to Google Directory -Reference &gt; Ask an Expert. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Transliteration brick wall
Hello fellow Wikipedians. I am trying to find where I can transliterate words from one alphabet (i.e. this one) into a few other languages' writing systems. It's for a fiction, so none of the words can be found in a dictionary; which is where I get stuck as most of the places I've found only translate. Are there places where I can just play with the established writing systems to transliterate words from one alphabet to another? I found places to do so with Hangul, Cyrillic and Hindi but I'm having no luck with Armenian, Persian, Georgian and Thai. Thankies!! Lady BlahDeBlah (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * By Persian, do you mean modern Persian (i.e. Farsi, written with a slightly modified Arabic alphabet), or ancient Persian, written in a cuneiform syllabary. For Farsi, you might have better luck using an Arabic transliterator. The drawback will be that p, g and ch will be transliterated differently. If you can't find that, an Urdu transliterator will have a similar result. For Armenian and Georgian, the correspondences aren't particularly difficult, so using an alphabet chart, and then entering the letters manually might work - you'll have to temporarily set up your computer for Armenian and Georgian keyboards, but it's not difficult. Still, if there's an online way to do it, that would be easier. Here's one for Georgian. Put it in the top box and click the button with the Georgian text - the output is unicode. Steewi (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * here's one for Armenian Steewi (talk) 01:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thai is more difficult - there's not a one to wone correspondence, and some letters change pronunciation depending on where they are in a syllable. You probably need a Thai speaker to help you with that one. Oh, and a note on the other ones, you might want to convert them back into latin text afterwards to make sure it's still good, and perhaps post the transliterations for speakers to check them. Remember that you can't convert, say, Louise, by putting Louise in the box and transliterating it, because the output will be pronounced something like low-iss-ee. You would get better results with putting in "luiz" or "luwiz". That's why you want to get them checked afterwards. Interesting work you're doing though. Good luck! Steewi (talk) 01:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The advice has been great so far, thanks :D As to the Thai one, (love that curly lettering) is there some kind of forum or whatnot? I've done a few searches but all I generally find, unless I'm missing what's under my nose, seem to be either dictionaries of actual words or places that translate commercially for business. Lady BlahDeBlah (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I would check on omniglot.com, they've got a lot of writing systems explained clearly enough to transliterate (although I would definitely still get it checked). СПУТНИК CCC  P 04:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Some language pairs are rendered into the target language (in your case, the foreign language) by transcription—according to the phonology, how the source language word is pronounced—and not transliteration (letter-by-letter correspondence). A standard uses in texts for publication probably already exists, and is not necessarily the same as a chart of letter correspondences made for language students. Familiar example: the Polish letter "ę" is transcribed/transliterated as "en" in English (e.g. Walensa for Wałęsa), but rendered in Hebrew there's no the letter "נ" to represent the [n] sound. Further with the same example: for the Polish "ł" both English and Hebrew use their letter for the [l] sound even though the sound approaches [w], and the Polish "w" remains so in English (and is probably mispronounced as the English [w] though Polish pronounces it as [v] ). In the past, I've consulted (via e-mail) the regional languages staff at the U.S. Library of Congress for into-English transliteration, so they may be able to provide some guidance regarding the standards existing in the other direction. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Seems I was hasty with the Wałęsa example, which I'm querying below.-- Deborahjay (talk) 06:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC))


 * And, not surprisingly, Transliteration has several links to just what you ask. Saintrain (talk) 15:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

catarct suregry (phaco)
I was operated for cataract surgery (3rd August 2008) and the Doctor says that he has incurred some complications and that some parts of the lense which he has removed are spread in the eye and I see them in the eye (floating). Please inform me in detail about this compliucation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.72.19.6 (talk) 12:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We're a reference desk for questions about languages and language usage. You need to ask your doctor about the medical issues you're having. —Angr 12:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The singular form of "lenses" is "lens". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Grammatical case – sample sentences?
I was just visiting the Grammatical case article. It contains examples of eight grammatical cases said to be common in Indo-European languages: nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, genitive, vocative, locative and instrumental. The example sentences are, however, in English, followed by all sorts of caveats including this one: "it is debatable whether the above examples of English sentences can be said to be examples of 'case' in English."

So, does anyone know which language would actually have all eight of these cases, and would it be possible to construct sample sentences in that language that illustrate the cases much better than the English sentences do? Thanks, WikiJedits (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sanskrit has all eight. —Angr 12:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Do you know enough Sanskrit to come up with eight sample sentences? Or does anyone else? I'm not having luck finding any in our Sanskrit grammar articles WikiJedits (talk) 14:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Take a look at Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, chapter 4 at Wikisource for some example sentences. —Angr 14:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks!WikiJedits (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The origin of the use of the phrase "head to head" to indicate a contest
How did "head to head" come to mean a contest or battle between two parties? I searched Google and Wikipedia and repeatedly came up with tête à tête, which has a much friendlier connotation. 67.209.3.112 (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)Rebecca
 * Total guess on my part but probably something to do with animals like stags and rams doing battle. - X201 (talk) 12:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the OED tête à tête was first used in English in 1697, while head to head was first used around 1728 to mean face to face with no particular aggressive connotations. It dates the aggressive use first to 1970 which it defines as "A conflict or contest (between two adversaries) at close quarters; a confrontation. colloq. (orig. U.S.)". But it lists in the quotes of the non-aggressive usage, a horse race from 1799 and a boxing match from 1950 which both sound very competitive. I think this is a case of the original French words sounding less aggressive so the English version shifted slowly in meaning.  meltBanana  22:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

frat
I am trying to understand where this is coming from, specifically in the world of gay porn: "fratmen", "frat guy", "frat boys" is used for cute guys, usually muscular and straight. I guess it comes from fraternity, but I cannot be sure. And if I am right why fraternity? surely these guys are not really from an actual fraternity? And if they were, why would that be sexy, to be used as a sort of porn advertisement? --Lgriot (talk) 13:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Members of a fraternity are an elect, select elite, so perhaps this affords a certain cachet that would appeal to some viewers. As the saying goes, "For those who like that sort, etc." HTH. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it has more to do with the stereotyped image of "frat boys" (college-aged men aged about 18–21 who live in fraternities in the Greek system on American college campuses) as being young, usually athletic and good-looking, reckless, and willing to do anything sexually if they're drunk enough. (What's the difference between a straight guy and a gay guy? About six beers.) Especially at public universities, fraternities and sororities are not particularly elitist anymore, I think. —Angr 14:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There is possibly some influence from the various "top-secret" rituals said to part of the fraternity experience, famously satirized in National Lampoon's Animal House. -- LarryMac  | Talk  15:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ...as in hazing. And {*ahem*} Greek, how could I forget that element? If not "elite/elitist" (consider current tuition fees, membership dues, etc.), still "exclusivist" in their rejecting unsuitable applicants. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think it is definitely Angr who is right. I didn't know that fraternities were accomodations for college guys in North America, but now it seems obvious that all the "frat boys" could be in college. thanks. --Lgriot (talk) 15:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, technically, the group is the fraternity, and at many colleges, the fraternity has a residence of some kind (hence, frat house). Angr's usage ("...who live in fraternities...") is common enough. Since in most states the legal age for drinking is 21, it's possible that from time to time underage frat boys do manage to find something to drink at the house belonging to Tappa Kegga Day. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

French pen pal
does anyone fluent in French want to be my psuedo-pen-pal sort of thing, where I send you emails or the like of French text that I have written and you (with your superior knowledge of the language) help me iron out all the the little errors I make to help me improve my understanding of the language. Or failing that, does anyone know where I can find such a person (maybe there are websites for this sort of thing). Thank you! Philc 0780 16:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you don't find anyone here, a quick google search found this site. I haven't tested it out, but it looks good. Fribbler (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Another site with a lot of discussion by participants is FrenchPod. The basic subscription is free, though they have various options at different price levels.  One advantage I can see of participating in the discussions is that you'd get feedback both from other learners and from the hosts, who are skilled speakers.  --- OtherDave (talk) 18:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Comma after ellipsis in dialogue?
A friend of mine asked me the following question: "When the ellipsis mark comes before a describer phrase, should a comma follow the ellipsis mark?

As in: "Umm . . .," she thought." I'm inclined to think that the comma does belong, but does anyone know for sure, and the reason why or why not? --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress  ( extermination requests here ) 17:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * These guys would leave out the comma -- and, really, how do you know you need one in an unfinished thought? Note they'd also put spaces before and after the ellipsis:


 * "Um ... " she thought, "Shouldn't he put that plutonium in a container?"


 * --- OtherDave (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe shouldn't should have a lower case s. But it would depend on whether her thought process was:
 * "Um ... shouldn't he put ...", or
 * "Um ... . Shouldn't he put ...".
 * We'd have to ask her to be sure. And if he'd done the right thing in the first place, we wouldn't be troubled by this thorny question.  Damn scientists, I always knew they couldn't be trusted. :) --  JackofOz (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Tamil and Chinese words
Moved from the Miscellaneous Desk -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

hi to all, i have some questions regarding the related words or similar usage words in between Tamil and Chineese ( mandarin).

in chineese "ittian" means small.
 * 1) In "Thirukural" the word " ittidhu" is used to mention small( "aagaru allvittidhayinum pogaru agalakkadai",
 * 1) In Tamil to mention hard work using "mangu mangu-ena" --- in chineese mang used to mention busy.
 * 2) In Tamil" mandham" means slow, in chineese "mantian" as same meaning.
 * 3) Both in Tamil and Chineese "Ni" or "Nee" means you.
 * 4) Mango called in Tamil as "Mangai" and in Chineese " mangua".
 * 5) Chop sticks in chineese called" Quaichu" and in tamil it may be equal to "Kuchchi" or "kavaikuchchi ( double sticks)". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.146.146.65 (talk) 19:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Some of these may be loanwords from one language into the other, or from some third language into both of them. (I suspect that's the case with the word for mango, which of course sounds similar in English as well.) Others may be based on a misunderstanding or misinformation. (I don't know much about Chinese, but I'm almost positive "ittian" is not a possible word of standard Mandarin Chinese. I thought the Chinese word for "small" was 小 xiǎo.) The rest of them are probably coincidences (just as it is a coincidence that the Persian word for "God" is god and that the word for "dog" in one Australian Aboriginal language – I forget which – is dog). —Angr 20:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ittian is supposed to be yidian 一點. Anyway, we can "discover" these look-alikes in any two languages (even discarding loanwords and onomatopoeia), if we really want to. It's only a matter of probability. In two languages that have mostly monosyllabic morphemes/roots (say, PIE and Chinese), you are almost bound to find out "cognates", and even "regular correspondences".--K.C. Tang (talk) 03:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

And 'mango' is 'mango' in English! Hooray! We are related! and so is every other language that calls mangoes 'mangoes', like Japanese.--ChokinBako (talk) 15:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

In Putonghua, yidian 一點 means “a little” or “a bit,” as in “man yidian” (slower). The word xiao 小 does indeed mean “small,” but not in the sense of  “a small amount” (which would be shao 少, or "few".) DOR (HK) (talk) 08:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Help with Deciphering... Something
Could anyone help me figure out what this says? It's part of a series of riddles/puzzles that I'm trying to solve. The letters look like Old English, but I'm not sure. --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress ( extermination requests here ) 21:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's IPA, or something very like it. I'm too busy to transcribe it myself. Algebraist 21:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It is IPA, and I'm not too busy to transcribe it. It says:
 * The mole a foxy and powerful person
 * But who, where are the clues
 * I could tell I know who and where
 * Because I was chosen to cause you trouble
 * It's me the mole but who's me
 * Ha ha I like to fool you
 * Maybe you see a clue maybe you don't
 * Do you know what's written here
 * Now you can see
 * This riddle's over
 * —Angr 21:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! Thanks so much! --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress ( extermination requests here ) 21:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)