Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 17

= September 17 =

Upside
What does 'upside' mean? 'On'? Why not just say 'on', considering that 'on' is not exactly the opposite of 'downside'? Also, why do Americans add 'of' to some prepositions ('off of', 'behind of', and, here, 'upside of')? Is this a relic of Finnish or something?--ChokinBako (talk) 11:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well the upside of something is its benefit in my eyes (the upside of reducing taxes is more money in my pocket, the downside is [potentially] less money for government to spend on public services). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That definition doesn't seem to apply to "Somebody is just asking for an enormous clout upside the head" (see 2 threads above). --  JackofOz (talk) 13:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The thread above is actually what I was referring to (even though the 'of' is omitted there).--ChokinBako (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think I've ever heard "upside of", and I've rarely heard "upside" used as a preposition with any object other than "head", or in conjunction with anything other than some sort of violent blow. To me a "smack upside the head" is an upward smack on the side of the head (ear, cheek, temple, that area). —Angr 14:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You'd be surprised how few American words come from Finnish (except, perhaps, in Hancock, Michigan). I'm with Angr; I have a notion that "upside the head" has roots either in the South or in black culture (there's some overlap, obviously).  "Upside of the head" would be the kind of thing someone would say while trying to be hip with the kids and the new lingo.  That's the downside to careless use of other people's slang.  --- OtherDave (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I can imagine the progression was: "up the side of the head" > "upside of the head" > "upside the head". It has a kind of novomundane logic; Clarityfiend's moving hand's relation to my poor old noggin isn't inside or outside or around or through or between or about, but, well, upside. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Novomundane. Wow! A Google search for novomundane did not find any occurrences. I guess it will soon. In the meantime, what does this brilliant word mean? (No pun intended.) Thanks. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh that's easy: of or relating to the New World. I would expect "novimundane", though, since the roots are Latin, not Greek, and the connecting vowel of Latin is -i-. Using Greek roots, the word would be "neocosmic", which does already exist, but with the wrong meaning. —Angr 16:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Live and learn. Thank you. I see that Google cannot find occurrences of "novimundane" any more than it could of "novomundane". Do Latinos create words to order as required, or is it the case that novimundane is a "standard" word for which there is very little call? Wanderer57 (talk) 20:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, double Wow! I am very, very surprised to learn I've just coined a new word.  It was the first one that popped into my head, and I thought that surely it must have been used before now, which is why I never even bothered to check.  Novimundane is more technically correct, but I like the sound and feel of my version, and since I turn out to be its creator I get to decree that that's the version that will forthwith come into popular usage. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We need a "Words invented by ref deskers" sub page to record such momentous coinings, and keep track of their rising use. It would save the OED a job in tracing the words' origins (when they eventually make the big time), and serve as a reference for people like me who swear to make use of them, but forget them next week (as in the case of the other ref desk words and phrases which I cannot for the life of me recall)!  Gwinva (talk) 22:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And since it's now GPL-ed who's gonna be watching for licensevios? Saintrain (talk) 23:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I expect this calls for buying Jack a drink next time one of us is in Oz, or Jack is wherever we are (Canada in my case.) Wanderer57 (talk) 02:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose now there will be hordes of people with fake Australian accents turning up, claiming their name is Jack. We will have to work out a secret password or such like. Wanderer57 (talk) 03:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, but I've forestalled this by putting my pic on my user page. I did that years ago, and I'm a little whiter and more Santa-like these days, but I'm still my clearly recognisable, unique loveable self, and imposters would be very easy to spot.  But that drink sounds like a good idea. Whose shout is it?  :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 07:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We can work that out. Just keep us informed if you are travelling. I don't want to have to carry your picture everytime I go to a bar. Cheers, Wanderer57 (talk) 04:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What?? You mean to tell me that you don't carry my pic in your wallet at all times?  I'm offended and deeply shocked!!  :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A smack upside the head is not a smack to the side of the head, it is a very specific type of slap where the palm side of the hand smacks the back of the head (where it joins the neck) in an upward motion. It's used in all kinds of older movies and TV shows as a disciplinary action against an unruly child (it stings, but leaves no visible bruise). Matt Deres (talk) 16:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The moving hand, having clouted, moves on. As to why I didn't just say "on", the same reason Jack chose "noggin": for a little variety and flavor. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, another example can be found with the Primus song....forgotten its name, but the singer says something along the lines of "I hit him upside of the head with an aluminum [sic] baseball bat". So, this would be around the neck area?--ChokinBako (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I suppose so, but as soon as you move from the literal into the figural or metaphorical, it becomes less and less clear. Consider statements as common as "kick his ass" and "beat the crap outta that guy"! Matt Deres (talk) 13:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Matt, thanks for the explanation. When I was growing up in Texas I was frequently threatened with a "smack upside the head", but since I never actually received one, the exact location of "upside" was left to my imagination. —Angr 17:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of "alongside" ("He maneuvered the dory alongside the yacht") as similar in usage to "upside the head," though not so restrictive.  --- OtherDave (talk) 00:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The general answer to the OP's third question is "because that's what languages do." There are rarely specific reasons to be found for inconsistencies, illogicalities and regional variations in language. "Upside [of]" as a preposition was all but unknown to me, as is 'behind of'. 'Off of', on the other hand, is widespread, though non-standard, in Britain as well as North America. "In back of", which I have encountered in American works, is all but unknown here, unlike "in front of". --ColinFine (talk) 21:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I am looking for a term that is used to describe the time wasting practice of pronouncing an acronym that takes longer to pronounce than if one simply pronounced the words that were initialized?
An example of an acronym that takes longer to pronounce than the title would be WWII, World War Two66.228.236.212 (talk) 22:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)Jen
 * That's not an acronym. An acronym is a word formed from initials that is pronounced as a word, such as laser, Nato etc. Malcolm XIV (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a false distinction perpetuated by some pedants. An acronym is a word formed from initials. For example, fact that the plural of RBI is RBIs demonstrates that RBI is a word no matter how it is pronounced. --Anonymous, 03:47 UTC, September 18, 2008.
 * (OK, I'll put my head in the lion's mouth.) There's no doubt that the plural of RBI is RBIs.  But that alone does not necessarily mean that RBI is a word, because there's no rule afaik that says that abbreviations can't have plurals.  Nobody would deny that it's an abbreviation in the most general sense of the word.  Whether it's also an acronym is a matter of debate, and I think it depends on one's definition of acronym.  The definition that Malcolm XIV relies on would exclude WWII and RBI.  The one you prefer apparently does not.  It's not a matter of pedantry.  But to insist that one of of at least two accepted definitions is the only correct one is perhaps the real pedantry.  No offence. --  JackofOz (talk) 07:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see World Wide Web. (no room for edit summary)
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If only people would follow my sensible advice and pronounce this sextuple u. <*sighs dramatically*> Bessel Dekker (talk) 15:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please bear in mind that those of us who have elected to maintain the highest moral standards in the face of turpitude and turgitude profoundly object to the practice of sextupling on a public venue like the WP:reference desk. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe "www" could be pronounced "wynn wynn wynn".
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (I edited my last comment.)
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 19:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Heard on the radio) Dub Dub Dub. Bunthorne (talk) 02:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * W being the only letter whose English name contains more than one syllable, this problem would be confined to acronyms/abbreviations containing that letter. And it would involve all of them, because words starting with other letters all have at least one syllable, whereas those letters have only one syllable. "www" would be by far the best-known example.  Maybe we should call it the "W-acronym problem" (or, for euphony, the "wacronym problem").  :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 02:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You can find many suggestions at Halfbakery: WWW pronounciation. {sic}
 * (Warning: In reading the entire page, I found two or three expletives.)
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 04:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

In answer to the OP: I don't know such a word, and I doubt that such a word has been seriously created, because the phenomenon it describes essentially does not exist. Does anybody pronounce 'WWII' as 'double u double u two' or the like? I don't think I've ever heard it. And 'WWW' may indeed be a written abbreviation for the World Wide Web, but as an abbreviation most people would pronounce it 'world wide web'. The 'www' which is usually prounounced 'double u double u double u' (though I usually pronounce it either 'wəwəwə' or 'treble u') is not an abbreviation but a part of an address, where the specific characters are crucial. --ColinFine (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

IPA font
Hi is there any font packages that would allow for typing IPA symbols directly (mapping sounds directly to a letter key or set of keys) instead of forcing me to do the "Alt-###" for every special character?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.132.11 (talk) 22:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're using Windows (>= 2000) then you can create a custom keyboard layout placing the desired IPA characters on keys of your choice. See MSKLC. Bendono (talk) 04:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * SIL Doulos (available from www.sil.org) has them to a degree, but many commonly used IPA letters are still on non-standard placements. Setting up shortcuts are probably your best bet. Steewi (talk) 04:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're typing it in Wikipedia there's a special symbols tool bar below the "Save page" button, and you can select IPA from there. In Linux with SCIM there's also an IPA keyboard layout. --antilivedT 06:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know India Pale Ale had a specific font. Most of the labels on the bottles always looked different to me.....or was that the ale?--ChokinBako (talk) 15:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)